Churchill Avre log carpet

[Johnny gers]

Hello people. I've been reading a book called cracking Hitlers Atlantic wall. In the book it speaks of a Churchill Avre log carpet. I got a few books on Churchills and have looked on the net and can not find a picture of one. What does it look like. Hope some one could help me.

Johnny

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Johnny,
Try this link; http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=6288

[Johnny gers]

Thank you for your help but the book I'm reading makes a distinction between the Churchill Fascine tank and the logo carpet churchill . I have see I line drawing of the log carpet churchill . It got a rack that's above the tank where the log carpet go's . Though I can not find a picture of it.

Johnny

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Ah, you're looking for the Churchill AVRE carpet layer:
http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=6287

HTH,
Hanno

[Johnny gers]

Thank you hanno. still not the tank. Here is a link to Military modelling which i belong to. I have posted there as well but i think now one will know it there. Its more of a modelling sit.

http://www.militarymodelling.com/for...s.asp?th=88924

Johnny

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Johnny,

Sorry, I cannot recall seeing a picture of that variant.

Hanno

[Johnny gers]

First hanno thank you for editing my link. They used 11 on overlord landings in 1944. I only found out about them a few weeks ago. When I started reading a book on the funnies used in the landings .

Johnny

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Johnny,

Done a search, the Churchill AVRE with Log Carpet is a rare bast indeed. One reference I found was on Henk of Holland's site:

Churcill AVRE with Log Carpet - Used in Dieppe
Likes the fascine roller and the carpet roller, there were also a A.V.R.E. version with logs on a steel frame

Will check my references and let you know if I find more.

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another reference found on http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2011/07/on-soft-ground/ (no picture):

AVRE with log carpet device; not used as much, consisting of 100 6inch diameter logs bound together with wire, the mat was unfurled by firing an explosive bolt which released the coiled mat

[Johnny gers]

Thank you Hanno for the help.No one can find a picture of it. Not on military modelling can find a picture.

Johnny

[Tim Bell]

Have you tried the Tank Museum at Bovington?

They probably have a manual for it - and ought to have some photos.

Tim

[Johnny gers]

Hi Tim and thank you. Funny enough I have done just that. Tried Bovington tank museum. This is what they said.

Johnny

Thank you. I am aware of the drawings in Futters book but we are not aware of any images of a vehicle with it actually fitted.

Best regards
Stuart Wheeler

Johnny

[eddy8men]

I haven't heard of a log carpet laying avre either , thanks for bringing it to my attention.
if I were looking for any info on an avre I would try the royal engineers museum at chatham in kent.

good luck with your search

rick

[Noel Burgess]

It seems that there were two different log carpet devices fitted to the AVRE at different times: the drawing posted by Hanno(from G Futters Book) is of a later development or proposal from later in the NW Europe campaign, the one used on D Day (in very small numbers) is very poorly documented but appears to have had the logs fitted lower down on the bow of the tank.
Cracking Hitlers Atlantic Wall is an excellent book but it is a shame that there is not more detail on the different AVRE attachments.
Noel

[servicepub (RIP)]

Here are two photos from my files showing a log carpet layer developed for Dieppe by a Canadian Engineer, Maj B Sucharov MBE. The photos were taken in May 1942, on the Isle of Wight.



Sucharov was awarded the MBE for his work. The citation reads:

SUCHAROV, Bert, Major - Member, Order of the British Empire - Engineers (1st Battalion, Royal Canadian Engineers) - awarded as per Canada Gazette dated 1 January 1943 and CARO/2983 dated 4 January 1943; confirmed in CARO/3580 dated 2 September 1943.

The initiative, drive and zeal of this officer have been outstanding since he landed in England in February 1940. He displayed great leadership and tireless energy in the engineer preparations for the Dieppe operations and experimented with new design of high explosives for offensive demolitions. He personally designed and produced the official attachments which enabled the tanks to overcome the shingle beaches and surmount the sea wall at Dieppe and during operations displayed the highest qualities of courage and resolution under heavy fire.

Of interest is that Sucharov was not just a back-room boffin but actually accompanied his invention into battle.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Something that sticks in my mind is the species of tree used for the "fascines" is chestnut. They are almost a weed. There have been other discussions on MLU about Canadian Forestry Corps units. It is not a stretch of imagination to have a work party detached from the more traditional lumbering duties to land clearing.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Johnny;

The image that Hanno posted on 16 Oct 2013 (see attached), is an accurate representation of the AVRE with Log Carpet Device, which was developed for the Normandy landings - description: a carpet of one-hundred 6-inch (15.2 centimetres) diameter logs, each 14-feet (4.3 metres) long, which were bound together with wire rope, and was mounted (looped) on a removable steel frame, above the AVRE itself (as in the attached image). The looped carpet of logs, was released over the front of the vehicle by the detonation of a light charge, from within the turret of the AVRE.

Later, as the crossing of the Rhine river was being planned, the 79th (British) Armoured Division, devised a similar device, in the form of a log carpet, looped on a removable steel frame, mounted on a Buffalo amphibian (LVT), with the looped carpet of logs being released over the rear of the Buffalo, as it climbed the bank, which was meant to provide a firm base for following DD tanks climbing the river bank

Cheers

[Johnny gers]

As I said in my title. Thank you all for your help. This is what I have found out and Mark is right of the use of the Log carpet. There were 11 across the three british/commonwealth beaches. Also the reason there may be no photographs of this vehicle I was told. They were used on H Hour . The allies could of been sensitive to the Germans fining out about these Vehicles. Well I hope to build one next year.

Johnny

Always thankful to all the great Canadian service people how fought for our freedom and those who made the ultimate sacrifice . Lest we forget.

[Noel Burgess]

According to Goeffrey Futter's book, the Log carpet device posted by Hanno and repeated by Mark was "developed by F wing of 79th Armoured Division at Gheel in Belgium during late 1944". However I am aware that some of the AVRE attachments shown in the book have since been shown to be proposals or experimental.
But this was not the same device as used on D Day. I have just searched my hard drive for the following which was sent to me by a friend - it is from the National Archives and is from a document entitled "Assault Royal Engineers - Equipment and training - may 1944. I am pretty sure that this is what a D Day log carpet looked like. I understand that there were some other devices in the document which were not used on D Day - such as a chespale carpet mounted in a similar way to the log carpet shown below

[Johnny gers]

Thank you Noel for your help. This is becoming a right pain . So what did it look like. It such an important part of history. Yet it a vehicle no one knows how it looked like.


Johnny

[Bob Cohoon]

Looks like it would work by having the first run of it falling down in front of the tank when the explosive bolt ( s ) are fired, then it gets jammed between the tracks and the ground and the forward movement of the tank would pull the rest of it off the rack. It looks to be much wider than the Bobbin device, so it would spread the load more in soft ground .Maybe in D-Day books there must be a good photo

[MicS]

Hello all,

The Log Carpet as used during the Normandy landings was indeed of the type shown in Noel's post above. I attached all the relevant pages, as sent by a friend (probably the same as Noel's ), which include a detailed description of how it was made and how it was to be launched.

More photos in next post.

Michel

[MicS]

There are not many photos of AVRE with Log Carpet that I know of, even less so with the Log Carpet still on. Here are a couple of well known NAC photos of AVRE 1D, 80 Aslt Sqn RE on D Day at Bernières. This AVRE was commanded by Lt John Holland SAUNDERS (228040) RE, and landed from LCT(5) 2286 (LTIN 1408) on NAN WHITE Green Gap. The timber on top of the mudguards is clearly visible on both pics, but on the first you will note that the release gate, which is in its "down" position, is slightly different from that shown on the drawings:






LCT Serial 1408 is visible on NAC PA-137130 (second row, fourth from left). The SBG br and Fascine AVsRE are easily recognisable, but the Log Carpet AVRE is not:




Another photo (by Lambton Burn, in his book "Down Ramps!") shows AVRE 4A 'BARBARIAN' commanded by Captain Thomas "Tom" Wyllie Howie FAIRIE (226311) RE, 77 Aslt Sqn RE, on board LCT(4) 947 (Serial 109) after the LCT was hit by German anti tank gun shells opposite the western end of Strongpoint COD:




The timber at the top of each track guard, as specified in the Training doc and as visible on AVRE 1D, seems to have been replaced by three lengths of tubular, which is consistent with information from a 77 Aslt Sqn report:

77 ASLT SQN

NOTES ON PREP FOR LANDING LA BRECHE D'HERMANVILLE AND LDG
OF CRAFT - 6 JUN 44. RECOMMENDATIONS FOR FUTURE OPS

(...)

2. SPECIAL FITTING

(a) AVRE, log carpet and Bangalore.

(i) Tubular cradle and release gate for carpet.

79 Aslt Sqn RE seems to also have used tubular, rather than timber, for their Log Carpet cradles. I believe that AVRE T 172053/C 'CHEETAH' of 79 Aslt Sqn RE, which landed from LCT(4) Serial 115 (QUEEN RED Blue Gap), is a Log Carpet AVRE, because these three tubular lengths are apparent on the top of the front mudguards. This would probably make it AVRE 3A commanded by Lieutenant William Haynes Hilton HUTCHINSON (219697) RE:




In conclusion, there were slight variations in details between units, but the general layout seemed to have been the same.

If someone has a higher resolution version of NAC PA-137130 I'd be very grateful, as it has lots of valuable details that are not clear here.

Michel

[Noel Burgess]

Michael
I had seen the last photo (Cheetah) many years ago and had assumed that the tubes on the track guards were lengths of Bangalore Torpedo. That was before I had found any forum discussions about the various AVRE fittings and then knew nothing about the D Day Log Carpet.
Many thanks for the others, which are new to me.
My information came from Mike by the way. Sorry for the delay in replying been away for a while.
Noel