Heads Up: Sherman for sale

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Collector's Source has an M4A2E8 Sherman for sale. I bet it's 'CAROL' the one Don Smith had.

http://www.collectorssource.com/sher...-complete.html

[Hanno Spoelstra]

M4A2E8 Sherman tank, the last version of the Sherman in use by Canada. Used in Korea by Canadians.

Correct desiganation is M4A2(76)W HVSS.

The Canadian Army in Korea used the M4A3(76)W HVSS, furnished by the U.S. Army.

Read more on my web page: http://www.mapleleafup.nl/g104/cdn.htm

H.

[Ryan]

so need 2 win lotto

[Brett Nicholls]

Hi Ryan,
Probably need Lotto and Powerball! One to buy it and the other to fund the shed construction and resto

Regards,

[maple_leaf_eh]

The Lotto 6/49 didn't win last week and it is over $28mil tax free and the Lotto Max is nearly $50mil again. Both in Canada. (A tax on the stupid, but I keep buying my tickets.)

[Ryan]

$21mil lotto draw in Vic this Sat too.
Gotta be in it to win it.

[rob love]

I had a discussion with someone else on this tank a day or so ago, and the question of ownership came up. Is this tank free and clear of the DND? If out of Canadian service and passed on to a museum or town/city back in the 70s, then they were generally just loans, and not sales. My understanding is there is a register of these tanks with their last known location in DND, and title of these items still lies with the government.

I would hate to see someone shell out that kind of coin just to end up having to fight with the federal government to retain ownership. Does anyone know how Don Smith came to possess it?

[jdmcm]

A lot of stuff was "traded" at the base level back in the day without the knowledge of DND, I remember stories of tanks traded for artillery pieces on a temporary basis then years later the guns being scrapped and tanks left with the private citizens but still on the DND's books...I would be a little tenuous about shelling out $300k until I had the ownership issue cleared up lest "D" cell shows up on your door and leaves you empty handed...just because somebody in uniform sells, trades or lends you vehicles, kit or parts...doesn't mean it was "theirs" to trade in the first place

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Don Smith had a long on again/off again relationship with DND. Several of the carriers currently in the Borden museum are his (he insisted), but that fact was forgotten when the curator passed away. There was some connection between the carriers and the Sherman that had not been satisfactorily sorted out but the details I'm sure are lost to history. In any other matter the 'statute of limitations' should apply as Don and his successors have had possession of CAROL for over 50 years. For $300,000 I'd be doing my due diligence though.

Originally Posted by rob love

I had a discussion with someone else on this tank a day or so ago, and the question of ownership came up. Is this tank free and clear of the DND? If out of Canadian service and passed on to a museum or town/city back in the 70s, then they were generally just loans, and not sales. My understanding is there is a register of these tanks with their last known location in DND, and title of these items still lies with the government.

I would hate to see someone shell out that kind of coin just to end up having to fight with the federal government to retain ownership. Does anyone know how Don Smith came to possess it?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by jdmcm

A lot of stuff was "traded" at the base level back in the day without the knowledge of DND, I remember stories of tanks traded for artillery pieces on a temporary basis then years later the guns being scrapped and tanks left with the private citizens but still on the DND's books...I would be a little tenuous about shelling out $300k until I had the ownership issue cleared up lest "D" cell shows up on your door and leaves you empty handed...just because somebody in uniform sells, trades or lends you vehicles, kit or parts...doesn't mean it was "theirs" to trade in the first place

Same here, I know of kit changing hands based on good intentions, but not "by the book".

Mind you, if everything was played by the book, many vehicles now restored at private expense would have ended up as a range target or being scrapped!

But as always, indeed: buyer beware.

H.

[jdmcm]

In Canada unlike the USA we do not have a "statute of limitations" on serious or indictable offenses, so I'm not sure just because it has been fifty years the Feds would have no claim to misappropriated DND assets...

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

I bet it's 'CAROL' the one Don Smith had

Bruce, is it on this list or survivors?

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving...6_Shermans.pdf

H.

[45jim]

Why does everyone think they're a lawyer?

There is no secret list in Ottawa on the disposition of Shermans or any other capital equipment. As with all Crown equipment at the end of its service life it is disposed of. Some are sold at auction or by closed bid and others like tanks are given away as monuments or placed on ranges as hard targets. This is where the records end.

When we were recovering tanks and bits from cold lake in the 90's we had the Bde legal officer tender the question about who owned the vehicles. The reason for this is that funds from our regimental charity would be used in the restoration of the vehicles and no one wanted to put private money into a DND asset. The word that came back from Ottawa through military channels was that the vehicles were SOS "struck off strength" and no longer considered vehicles or assets by DND. The vehicles were issued to the base commander for range use and then they were struck from the register. This was also confirmed when the range in Wainwright and Cold Lake were cleaned up, the scrap companies were given a contract to remove "residue composed of tanks, aircraft and other vehicles" without any regard to identifying which tank was which so it could be accounted for. They simply no longer exist.

The problem with tanks, carriers and artillery pieces compared to jeeps and trucks is that regular wheeled vehicles can be road registered and thereby generate a trail of ownership. If you find a CMP in a field even without any paperwork most of us would buy it without a second thought. And if this was a universal carrier I don't think this would be a topic of discussion, everyone would just accept it was legally released. The caution about tanks in the civilian market in mostly unjustified.

The Strathconas also received monument vehicles when Royal Roads was closed. Among these was an M4A2 that was completely stripped, we were approached by a legion if they could have it, Ottawa said we could do whatever we wanted with it and no paperwork was required as long as we didn't sell it. Selling of government equipment is the sole responsibility of crown assets and unless we wanted to turn it over to them there could be no selling. Not sure what happened to that one.

Military Museums generate lists of "assets" because many items are donated by private parties and some way of accounting for them needs to be established. Adding these donated items to a list does not make those items DND or Government property, so those museums can do with it what they please sell, trade or scrap. Most museums have a DA account listing items that have been issued by DND but even these are often "SOS" while still on the museums account so there are items on account that really no longer exist. These are often sold or traded much to the chagrin of the guy who takes over and looks at the DA he is supposed to sign for. Normally, if a problem is found and a short investigation performed, if its not a weapon they usually just amend the account minus the missing items.

Approximately 30 Shermans were sold in the 60's and all bought by a forestry equipment manufacturer in BC. So a few escaped unmodified from them or other companies as the vehicles traded hands over the years. However, while I was told about it and saw the remaining tanks and residue, no records of the sales could be found during our limited search at the archives.

Not knowing this tank personally, I would think its as solid as any carrier out there. If it was stolen, then it had to be on a register somewhere and reported stolen. If an investigation was carried out it would have been recovered, tanks are hard to hide. If it was on a museum register and traded I'm sure its long struck off. Whomever buys it should register it, most people know a mechanic who will get it through a mechanical inspection, just need to add a windshield and a wiper. Start the trail of ownership.

This tank is 50% overpriced, they are dreaming.

[chris vickery]

Originally Posted by 45jim

This tank is 50% overpriced, they are dreaming.

Considering that there were a couple Canadian Rams for sale just south of the border for considerably less in the past year....

[jdmcm]

I agree with most of your post Jim, but I know personally of vehicles, one being a carrier, one being a M113C&R Lynx, both decades old trades, long forgotten about that were re-claimed by the government, I'm not sure the carrier owner will confirm this, but he is a member here. No compensation was paid for any restoration or parts added to either vehicle, so it does happen, maybe not with the regularity and zealousness of the country to the south of us, but it does happen. Now I am not saying in any way this is the case with this tank, that is an issue for buyer and seller and I am sure they have their ducks in a row, so I do apologize for any implications it was otherwise.
On the price of the Sherman, in Canada, yes I agree they are dreaming on the price, this market does not support that as far as I have ever seen. But now that pre-1956 armor can be imported into the states with nothing more than an ATF form 6, they have a whole new market. In the last year at least three "Easy Eights" have traded hands in the USA, prices were $625k(M4A2), $500k(M4A3) and $325k(M4A2)USD. And we can now export 1945 and older armor with no special requirements, the same as the UK.
I would imagine that is where this tank will be headed, south or overseas. And your right, just because I have a law degree, it doesn't make me a lawyer

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Considering that there were a couple Canadian Rams for sale just south of the border for considerably less in the past year....

Ram tanks in the USA?!? Please tell me more!

Hanno

[rob love]

I suspect he meant Cdn Grizzlys. There is a pair of them up for sale form a movie company in the US.

[chris vickery]

Yes Rob, sorry brainfart... Grizzlies

[jdmcm]

The Grizzly tanks currently for sale are priced at 295k, 310k and 275k, all in USD so they are priced significantly higher than the M4A2 near Toronto, the one that sold 2 years ago was the second one the Veluzat brothers had in California, Sold for 195k USD, they still have one for sale of the three above at 275k. I suppose the US doesn't have as much interest in "Canadian" tanks...too bad, sure be nice to bring one of those home to Canada...

[maple_leaf_eh]

Jim's post makes sense. How many members of this forum haven't shot at hard targets on a military range - and not felt anxiety?

[charlie fitton]

Under numerous layers of paint on Don's Tank you will find (in the strata) a two-toned, pink, tiger stripe paint job...



f

[jdmcm]

Pink tiger stripe paint job? ok you don't drop a tidbit like that without telling the story! Come on man!

[Michael R.]

Struck by a 76mm paint round from a pseudo 90mm . . . ?
As Charlie wrote, it was painted camo pink on request for a corporate advertising rental.

[Lynn Eades]

So the pink elephants could hide beside it?

[Michael R.]

Have you ever seen a pink elephant hiding beside a camo pink coloured Sherman?
No, I did not think so.

____________ _____________ !

[Lynn Eades]

So, It worked well then!

[charlie fitton]

It's not often that I feel I can add to the collective pile of knowledge here - itis somewhat life affirming.

My understanding is that you would have to have seen a B - very B - movie.

Don't blame me if it's 1 hour, 23 minutes, and 18 seconds that you can't get back in your life.


f

[charlie fitton]

I don't know if I'm doing any of you ( even the current owners ) any favours.

I may even lose a few of the friends that I have here....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRuYIhneZ2c


f

[Robert Bergeron]

It's true. I watched the film Charlie posted and the Sherman was striped in pink.

Unbelievable... almost incredible.

Some of the girls looked great in their youth.

Wonder what they look like today ? The Sherman sure looks great.

[Jack Innes]

Originally Posted by charlie fitton

I don't know if I'm doing any of you ( even the current owners ) any favours.

I may even lose a few of the friends that I have here....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRuYIhneZ2c


f

Thank you Charlie. To retain a little dignity you can drag the red line at the bottom of the video to 1.04 hr. & the scene with the pink Sherman starts very shortly.