C8AX production

Brian Gough · #1 09-02-05, 01:19

To David Hayward,

At the end of your posting "Ford engine enigma" on the Softskin Forum, you said:

"Incidentally I also have the GM of Canada monthly 216 Chev and 248 GMC figures for the war and 'CKD' production by month."

Are you able to provide the CKD figures for May and June 1943?

If so, can the number of C8AX vehicles (chassis XH8448) produced on Contract 2394 for New Zealand be determined? ........ and from that number, we can finally learn how many C8A Heavy Utilities were produced, based on the published total of 12,967 for both the C8A and the C8AX.

Thanks in advance for anything more you can provide.

Brian

Tony Smith · #2 09-02-05, 05:23

And could you possibly be able to shed some light on why all C8AX data plates I've seen show the build date as 5 May 43 or 5 June 43? (with variations between 5 5 43 and 5 May 43. Done by different people or different days?)

David_Hayward (RIP) · #3 09-02-05, 09:21

There were 3,414 and 3,330 CKD units in May and June 1943 with 108 in July.

These are the sum total of known C8AX chassis:

ALL S/M 2394: [ASSEMBLED BY G.M. NEW ZEALAND, CODE XH]
XH8448-275 MFGD. MAY 4 1943
XH8448-377 ENGINE # FR3,863,573 MFGD. MAY 5 1943
XH8448-382 ENGINE # FR3,863,937 MFGD. MAY 5 1943
XH8448-428 MFGD. MAY 5 1943
XH8448-564 MFGD. MAY 5 1943
XH8448-657 ENGINE # FR3,864,068 MFGD. MAY 5 1943
XH8448-718 ENGINE # FR3,864,330 MFGD. JUNE 5 1943
XH8448-834 MFGD. JUNE 5 1943
XH8448-890 MFGD. JUNE 5 1943

However, I am not sure whether the 'June' is correct now. I wonder if they were '6 5-43' and have been misinterprested? I would have said that the maximum was possibly 900, although this assumes that GM NZ started their sequential system with XH8448-1...we need to ensure that there were no other CMPs assembled at the time. I would suggest that the platews were stamped by the GM NZ men on the line, as these would have been blank plates supplied along with the crates of components. On that basis I can understand firstly why different men on a different shift would stamp the way that they thought was correct, and why assembly in June might have been possible. The engines I date to early 1943 at the latest.

However I have one other line of enquiry: knowing the contract number I am going to endeavour to look up the Ministry of Supply record card and see what it says as this should give the information we need!

Tony Smith · #4 09-02-05, 10:31

David, it is June. I have several more pics of C8AX plates but they are on film and I have to sort through them to find them. Here's one of ...870 to keep you happy in the meantime.

Tony Smith · #5 09-02-05, 10:36

..-606

Tony Smith · #6 09-02-05, 10:37

and ..-496

David_Hayward (RIP) · #7 09-02-05, 11:16

Tony, this smells to me as though there were two batches at least and GM NZ assembled them roughly one month apart. The stamping inconsistencies I put down to a) different men and b) whichever stamp was to hand...'5' takes less effort than 'M-a-y' as wel!

Keith Webb · #8 09-02-05, 19:47

Hey Tony
How about some pics of the trucks they were attached to?

Tony Smith · #9 10-02-05, 14:05

..-870

Tony Smith · #10 10-02-05, 14:07

..-606

Tony Smith · #11 10-02-05, 14:19

..-496

David_Hayward (RIP) · #12 10-02-05, 17:04

..the last one the Coupe GT version?

Tony Smith · #13 10-02-05, 17:43

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Is the last one the Coupe GT version?

No, just has a spare Chev Lend Lease cab sitting vertically on the back

:
David, you said you suspect that GM NZ may have assembled two batches of C8AX. Do you think it's possible that the whole month's production for, say, April may have been delivered or handed over on 5 May 43 and the following 4 weeks production handed over on 5 June 43? That is, the date is not the actual date of assembly, but delivery? Another possibility is that the date refers to the date that a consignment of CKD kits was received by GM NZ for assembly. I can't see GM NZ assembling hundreds of trucks on one day, having a month off and then assembling another couple of hundred. I think it was more likely to be a continous stream of assembling CKD kits.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #14 10-02-05, 22:08

Tony, interesting points. I note that there were two dates in April, 4th and 5th, and then a big gap: this would suggest three batches and not just two. In the past I have been investigating CKD exports by GM since 1920, and so far I can see there was a finite capacity of crates that could be fitted in a ship and then after mid-1940 the Canadian government had problems with finding shipping space for CKD crates. Space was at a premium and often crates had to be left behind. I can imagine that although Oshawa produced a large number of crated CKD trucks, and had them railed to Vancouver, shipping constraints and the need to sometimes drop off crates say in Australia, could have resulted in batches arriving independently.

The uncertainty I have with the C8AX assembly is that the 'XH' code applied to all Chevrolets assembled in Petone Plant and they used a sequential number. There could have been other chassis assembled at the same time and the same sequence applied. However, I do understand why the 'manufactured' date could equally be the 'delivered' date. I query whether 300-odd chassis could have been assembled in the Plant in one day!

POSTSCRIPT: I have been looking up my data. In 1920 the largest shipment from the US to that time was 300 crated cars, although it appears that 600 chassis could be shipped in one go. Running forward 20 years, Windsor and Oshawa produced about 125 CMPs each day up to August 1940, and then it was suggested that this could be ramped-up to 200 or so per day.

Tony Smith · #15 04-05-06, 23:40

Here's a Red Herring for you, David C8AX No 229 with a build date of 5-3-43. Could the March production be one batch and the May/June be the second batch, or do you think now there might be 3 batches?

Tony Smith · #16 04-05-06, 23:43

And for Keith, here's -229:

Tony Smith · #17 04-05-06, 23:45

David, in case you didn't update you database, -721 (5 June 43)was photographed by Keith at the Ganmain auction.

Tony Smith · #18 05-05-06, 00:11

To update the list:

These are the sum total of known C8AX chassis:

ALL S/M 2394: [ASSEMBLED BY G.M. NEW ZEALAND, CODE XH]

XH8448-229 ENGINE # FR3863719 MFGD. 5 3 43
XH8448-275 MFGD. 4 MAY 43
XH8448-377 ENGINE # FR3863573 MFGD. 5 5 43
XH8448-382 ENGINE # FR3863937 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-428 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-496 ENGINE # FR3863872 MFGD. 5 5 43
XH8448-502 ENGINE # FR3863593 MFGD. 5 5 43
XH8448-564 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-594 ENGINE # FR3863668 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-606 ENGINE # FR3864085 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-657 ENGINE # FR3864068 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-718 ENGINE # FR3864330 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-721 ENGINE # FR3864172 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-834 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-870 ENGINE # FR38635?4 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-890 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43

cliff · #19 05-05-06, 00:15

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I query whether 300-odd chassis could have been assembled in the Plant in one day!

I seriously doubt whether production exceded 10 to 15 vehicles a day at that time in the Petone plant so Tony's theory about the dates being delivery dates is probably correct.

Cheers
Cliff

David_Hayward (RIP) · #20 05-05-06, 10:59

Thank you Tony! However do I take it that I have noted down incorrectly:

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
CHASSIS MODEL C.15441
CAB MODEL 13
CHASSIS SERIAL XH8448-394
ENGINE SERIAL FR3863668
ORDER 2394
DATE OF MFG 5 MAY 43

which you have as # 594?

I have noted that the date stamping is inconsistent... US and British notation and also the month stated as 'May' or 'June' and '5'...suggesting different personnel added the date on a piecemeal basis? Also it appears from my database that the Cab type is not always stated.

I also think now that the Manufactured date was the date of release for the reason stated.

Ken Hughes · #21 05-05-06, 20:39

229 for your info keith is known as Hurcules, owned by fred naish here in dunedin nz .

Tony Smith · #22 05-05-06, 23:57

Quote:

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Thank you Tony! However do I take it that I have noted down incorrectly:

GENERAL MOTORS OF CANADA
CHASSIS MODEL C.15441
CAB MODEL 13
CHASSIS SERIAL XH8448-394
ENGINE SERIAL FR3863668
ORDER 2394
DATE OF MFG 5 MAY 43

which you have as # 594?

Ahh, yes, we did discuss this one some time ago. Let the members decide, is this -394 or -594?

I have tried to show the database with the date as written on the plate, to differentiate which style was used. I haven't seen "13" noted for cab model on ANY C8AX plate yet, although all C8AX's were 13 cabs.

David_Hayward (RIP) · #23 06-05-06, 10:35

# 594 I think...I stared and stared at it and beliveve it may have been a mis-stamping that was done again, and although initially it looks like a 394, I now believe it is 594. Cheers.

Note also the Canadian plates pressed from behind, and Petone plant stamped with a punch or similar onto the blank plates supplied by Oshawa.

Hanno Spoelstra · #24 11-05-06, 14:01

Another C8AX survivor. Don't know the s/n.

Click image for larger version

Name: CMP%208.jpg
Views: 4
Size: 74.2 KB
ID: 95807

Source: http://jeepdraw.com/Trailer_Canadian.html

Tony Smith · #25 11-05-06, 14:12

That's -606, shown above. Owned and restored by Arthur Poll.

Hanno Spoelstra · #26 11-05-06, 14:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony Smith
That's -606, shown above. Owned and restored by Arthur Poll.

Ah yes, I see it now. Sorry 'bout that, but those CMP's all look the same, don't they

H.

David Hardway · #27 20-05-06, 01:57

I started making a list of C8AX chassis numbers a few years ago unfortunately most of the info went with a stolen briefcase however i have just started to try and piece things together again the lowest number being XH8448-067 and the highest being XH8448-903

i will try and post my list asap

Dave

Ford F15A
Universal 3" Mortar Carrier
NZ Pattern Wheeled Carrier
Ford F30 LRDG Replica (Project)

Tony Smith · #28 20-05-06, 04:19

That's good, Dave. There were probably only 1000-1200 C8AX produced and a surprisingly large percentage of them still survive today. There's a good chance here to record a lot of info for one of the smallest (literally!) batches of CMP.

Rob Beale · #29 17-08-06, 10:20

Hi to all, I have a C8AX no 087 with a build date of 5 - 3 - 43. It is the third version of the kiwi puddle jumpers, the "ambulance, 4 stretcher". It was released from the army in the late 1960's, and spent nearly 20 years as a chemical sprayer! I'll post a picture soon, once I get the new canopy fitted. We plan to have all three versions together at the Cambridge Armistice Day commemorations later this year.

New Zealand Army Museum have a data base printout of most of the fleet from the early war years to late 1980's, but it is hardcopy only and is listed by NZ census number only. I have seen it and it records disposal dates, and vehicle type, but NOT the makers serial numbers like chassis no. etc.

I'll get some more C8AX numbers to Dave Hardaway for his list.

Rob Beale
NZ

David_Hayward (RIP) · #30 17-08-06, 10:41

ALL S/M 2394: [ASSEMBLED BY G.M. NEW ZEALAND, CODE XH]
XH8448-067
XH8447-087 MFGD. 5 3 43
XH8448-229 ENGINE # FR3863719 MFGD. 5 3 43
XH8448-275 MFGD. 4 MAY 43
XH8448-377 ENGINE # FR3863573 MFGD. 5 5 43
XH8448-382 ENGINE # FR3863937 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-428 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-496 ENGINE # FR3863872 MFGD. 5 5 43
XH8448-502 ENGINE # FR3863593 MFGD. 5 5 43
XH8448-564 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-594 ENGINE # FR3863668 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-606 ENGINE # FR3864085 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-657 ENGINE # FR3864068 MFGD. 5 MAY 43
XH8448-718 ENGINE # FR3864330 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-721 ENGINE # FR3864172 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-834 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-870 ENGINE # FR38635?4 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-890 MFGD. 5 JUNE 43
XH8448-903

Do we agree that the '3' and '5' are indedd March and May respectively? Otherwise why would the second digit be so close to the year?

I have concluded that these data plates were all stamped by GM New Zealand Ltd in Petone, and that they arrived CKD. Note that the engine numbers are in no way sequential, and so were dhipped independently from Walkerville and stored around the Plant. Do others agree that we have three batches here at the moment? Whether each batch were actually assembled on the date on the plate I would not like to say..these may have been official dates and could even be delivery dates?