Kangaroo Photos wanted

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
The use of 'RAM' Kangaroos in Italy was discussed here on the fourm before, under the thread: Kangaroos, in The Armour Forum, located: here.

Yes, Priest and Sherman Kangaroos, I know that. No Rams as far as can be ascertained, yet the man who sent me the pictures of the broken bridge said they were made in Italy.

Of the last four photos I posted I have no further details and/or better scans. What you see is what you get. The were either sent to me or I found them on websites during the past years. Any info is welcome.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Rob van Meel in Beware: Repro 1 CACR titles
On Kangaroos in Tilburg. I'll go and see the local history department of the city. Maybe they may be able to help.

Yes, they will - see http://stadsmuseum.tilburg.nl/bevrijding2004.htm (see pics below),
and http://regionaalarchief.tilburg.nl/r.../wo2/index.htm.

Also make sure to search for "tank" on http://beeldonline.tilburg.nl/ - I found a couple of Kangaroo pics with location details.

Theo Dekker knows a lot about the Kangaroos, too: http://regionaalarchief.tilburg.nl/r...urg/dekker.htm

Cheers,
Hanno


Source: http://stadsmuseum.tilburg.nl/tilbur...fotopagina.htm


Source: http://stadsmuseum.tilburg.nl/strijd...fotopagina.htm

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Hanno;

Do I read the date right "Colonne RAM-tanks van het Canadian Armoured Tank Corps The Kangaroos op 28 oktober op de Markt. In deze tanks werden soldaten naar het front gereden." - 28 October?, for this image:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Do I read the date right (...) 28 October?

Yes, you read that right. Earlier I quoted a caption from a photo which was obviously taken at the same event: "De Markt, Tilburg, 27 October 1944, waiting for a liberation parade". As the population of Tilburg had been waiting for the liberation for well over four years, I guess an extra day didn't matter

H.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Yes, you read that right. Earlier I quoted a caption of what was obviously the same event: "De Markt, Tilburg, 27 October 1944, waiting for a liberation parade". As the population of Tilburg had been waiting for the liberation for well over four years, I guess an extra day didn't matter

Thanks Hanno

[Bill Miller]

Mark, Hanno:

If I may wade into the issue of "kangaroo" photos. Clive now has copies of the 100+ photos, newsreel stills and reference I sent him so I have looked at quite a few of these pics for a number of years now. I make no claims to be any kind of expert, particularly among the esteemed and knowledgable members of this forum. However, allow me to make a few observations.

In all the photos that I have that can be clearly identified as 1CACR and clearly 49APCR (and there are many) almost all the 1CACR Rams are mid to late production "ball mount MG" with the 6 digit CT #'s, Sherman type suspension. Almost all the 49APCR Rams are the early to mid production "auxillary turret type, 5 digit CT #'s. The Rams supplied to the British all retained their CT #'s right to the end of the war. The best evidence of this can be seen in the Pathé newsreel of kangaroos in Hamburg Germany May 3rd, 1945. British Pathé ID # 2026.02

1CACR were never in Hamburg so this IS definitely 49APCR. There is a lot of great footage of columns of kangaroos, some can be seen to be very early type Rams with the side hull doors! I also have pictures from the Henk Kupiers 49RTR/APCR website that show all early Rams and another with side hull doors.
http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~hgmkuip/bl...9frameset.html

I have a theory on why the regiments purposely got different allotments of Rams. This was for parts/maintenance purposes, primarily the difference in suspension and the likely hood of the suspension needing constant attention? Perhaps I am out to lunch on this?

Regarding marking, again, my observation in "identifiable" photos. "Generally", Canadians used crooked allied recognition stars, the 49APCR did not. 49APCR seemed to use some sort of letter/number troop marking on the rear hull corners. (ie. R9, S8, J2, etc...). Again this is observable in the above Pathé clip in Hamburg. The 1CACR used the round "kangaroo" stencil exclusively which can be seen in many photos and really well in some Pathé newsreels. I have not seen the 158 unit sign on any pics of 49APCR rams. I think the 79AD bullshead can be seen vaguely on the fender of 1CACR's "Frisky" in the Pathé # 1969.07... this is also a just a great reel to watch, lots of different armour.

Other observations, the 49APCR seemed to be more dilligent about neatly cutting back the front fenders. The Canadian Rams seem to always have lopsided fenders or bent up fenders that are ready to fall off. The Canadian seem to have more "stuff" on, around and attached particularly later in the war. Some identifiable 49APCR vehicles show horizontal bars welded across the seams on the transmission. It creates a ladder type of structure and probably made it easier for crews to mount up. The posted "Blerick" photo clearly shows this.

Identifying crews by their cap badges is difficult to do in pre February 1945 photo as 1CACR wore the generic CAC badge and 49APCR wore the generic RTR badge (not the RAC mailed fist) which are identical except for the wording on the scroll, "Canada/Fear Naught". Once the 1CACR got their 'roo badges it is much easier... in photos the badges tend to look like "anchors".

One of the pictures posted here is definitely postwar. The Ram coming over the hill, three vertical bars painted on the front, radio guy sitting in the aux turret. is part of a post war series that Bovington has and is similar to "kangaroo" excercises, Pathé newsreel 2525.26 circa 1950? BTW there are shots of other "funnies" in action in this reel (Crabs and Crocs).

The posted photo taken at "Blerick" can be seen at Henk's website listed above along with other photos from the same operation. In my copy of the photo I make the CT # to be 40856. RTR style badge clearly on the one crewman.

Well that's it. if I think of anything else I will post again. I look forward to your comments.

Bill.

[Snowtractor]

Got my Patton copy today. Armadillo is CT40703 and the other ram in it is Diana CT40372 and has a number 39 on the left rear corner. It is interesting to see the angle iron welded on to the hull to hold baggage on other little add-ons.
Sean

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Snowtractor

Got my Patton copy today. Armadillo is CT40703 and the other ram in it is Diana CT40372 and has a number 39 on the left rear corner. It is interesting to see the angle iron welded on to the hull to hold baggage on other little add-ons.

Ram Kangaroo CT-40372 "DIANA" of the 49th Armoured Personnel Carrier Regiment. One can tell they are British as the crew is using an umbrella to keep the weather at bay ;-)

CT-40372 was Struck Off Strength from Canadian stocks to the British in October 1944.

ct40372_diana.jpg ct40372diana49apcr16.jpg

307325244_5457639950950916_3472088999749461413_n.jpg

[Bill Mulholland]

........Kangaroos. As I am only semi computer literate, I will post in this manner. Re the photos of DiamondTs in this string; my reply is based on the book DIAMOND T Type 980/981 authors:Les Freathy/Robin Pearson(Roundoak Publishing, UK, 2001); the one showing the collapsed Bailey bridge with DT and Kangaroo is in Holland in 1944(p. 50), the one showing the convoy was taken from an autobahn overpass, Germany, 1945(p. 51), and the one showing the D T with the jerry cans stacked between the cab and ballast-box was taken in Holland. The complete photo has a 40 ton Mkll Dyson trl attached to a 981, loaded with an LVT4 Buffalo moving up in preparation for the Rhine crossing(p. 49). The Canadian Army were also great "hooch" builders on the back of their recovery vehicles. During two tours in Germany I spent many a pleasant evening on the back deck of my Centurion and Leopard ARV in the "hootch". Not to detract from the original intent of the subj, I noticed the "T" before I noticed the cargo.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's a picture I had not seen before. It was published in the article "Highlanders in the Low Countries - Operation 'Colin' by the 51st (Highland) Division in Holland in October 1944", After the Battle issue no.120.
It shows 1CACR Kangaroos lined up on a sand path between Eerde and Schijndel, carrying 2nd Seaforth Highlanders into battle on 23 October 1944.
No credits given other than "IWM".

H.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
It shows 1CACR Kangaroos lined up on a sand path between Eerde and Schijndel, carrying 2nd Seaforth Highlanders into battle on 23 October 1944.

Great picture Hanno, I've seen the 'right half' of this picture published before on it's own. Yes, on 23 Oct 44, 2nd Seaforths were 'lifted' by Kangaroos, but they were of the 1st CAPC Sqn, who as of 2359hrs, 23 Oct 44 ceased to exist, being absorbed into the 'new' 1st CAPCR, effect 0001hrs 24 Oct 44.

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Caption: "Holland liberated - 27-10-44 Tilburg.
Kangaroos transported infantry of the 6th King's Own Schottish Borderers to Tilburg."

source

Caption: "Holland liberated - 27-10-44 Zundert.
Kangaroos with American infantry's on the way to Antwerp. The first kangaroo or ram tank is towing a 17 pounder anti tank gun plus limber."

source

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Has anyone seen any (wartime) pictures of this armored air intake cover on a Ram Kangaroo?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
the Henk Kupiers 49RTR/APCR website
http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~hgmkuip/bl...9frameset.html

Also see Home Page for the 49th APCR Association.
Text and pictures to update it are welcome, either myself or Geoff will do the html formatting.

Thanks,
Hanno

[servicepub (RIP)]

Although this was previously posted in the "For Sale" section, members may be interested in knowing that the project which started this thread is now completed.
MLU'er Mark Tonner has written a concise history of the 1st CACR and this is well illustrated thanks to MLU'er Bill Miller. Thanks also go to MLU'er Hanno Spoelstra without whom the book would not be as good as it is.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by servicepub
Although this was previously posted in the "For Sale" section, members may be interested in knowing that the project which started this thread is now completed.
MLU'er Mark Tonner has written a concise history of the 1st CACR and this is well illustrated thanks to MLU'er Bill Miller. Thanks also go to MLU'er Hanno Spoelstra without whom the book would not be as good as it is.

Cheers to both for their assistance and to the mysterious 'servicepub' for his guidance, support and assistance during my work on this project, it is much appreciated.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by servicepub
MLU'er Mark Tonner has written a concise history of the 1st CACR and this is well illustrated thanks to MLU'er Bill Miller. Thanks also go to MLU'er Hanno Spoelstra without whom the book would not be as good as it is.

Glad to have been of help. This book is well worth having and features a number of previously unpublished photographs.

Let's continue the search for more Kangaroo pics! Here's one from the DVD "La Bataille d'Allemagne" (source: http://danielcesar.fotopic.net/)

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I also now have a collection of photos from the reunion, but my scanner is upgefukkened, so it will be a bit until I can put them online. Lots there of the old lads, though!

[Bill Miller]

Hanno,

Just to put a time and place on Daniel's DVD frame capture. That scene is originally from a British newsreel of the 49th Armd Personnel Carrier Regt. entering Hamburg, May 2, 1945.

Geoff, I look forward to seeing some of the reunion photos! Harold Thompson put me in touch with another lost kangaroo living in BC. If I find anymore kangaroo vets out here we might have enough guys to have our own "western" reunion!?

Bill.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Here's a picture I had not seen before. It was published in the article "Highlanders in the Low Countries - Operation 'Colin' by the 51st (Highland) Division in Holland in October 1944", After the Battle issue no.120.
It shows 1CACR Kangaroos lined up on a sand path between Eerde and Schijndel, carrying 2nd Seaforth Highlanders into battle on 23 October 1944.
No credits given other than "IWM".

The right half of this photo was used in Bill's book on Kangaroos. It appears on page 5. The print was obtained from a private individual.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

A couple more of which I think we have not seen before. Pictures were taken at 't Woold near Winterswijk, and are dated 31 March 1945. According to the source, a fierce fight was fought at 't Woold during which several dozens of German and English soldiers died. Looks like at least four Kangaroos were knocked out.


Temporary graves after "the battle for 't Woold".

Source: http://www.bevrijdingskinderen.nl/bevrijd/1/index.htm

Additional details are welcome!

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Temporary graves after "the battle for 't Woold".

Another shot of the same Kangaroo, from the facebook page of Oud Woold:

17122_1065873936775635_2619617707946966723_n.jpg

Plus one more then & now picture.

H.

[tankmodeler]

Hanno,

Wow! Great photos and showing very interesting details on each. The colour still shows a Kangaroo, but with at least two grab bars welded to the hull as visible in the photo. Normal wisdom has it that these were only on the Wallaby ammo carriers, but apparently at least some Brit 'Roos had them added in the field.

The B&W photos show what had to be an absolutely rare beast, A Kangaroo made from a Ram with the Wright version of the radial engine (the external mufflers are the giveaway). Given that these needed 100 Octane gas, they would have been a bear to find gas for in the field with everything else using 87 octane. Would not have thought any were converted to 'Roos for that reason, especially given the supply situation in late 44.

Thanks for posting them!

Paul

[David Herbert]

Paul,
Yes you are quite correct, the above Ram is one of the first 247 that were built with the Wright R975/EC2. The exhaust and air cleaner arrangement changed at the same time as the change to Continental R975/C1 engines. However by that point in the war it is very likely that tanks of this age that had mostly been used for training in the UK, would have had the engine changed, possibly more than once. It would be very easy to exchange the exhaust manifolds as the fittings are all the same. No change would be needed to the inlet side as the carb is externaly identical so the intake pipes would plug straight on. One of the good things with this family of engines is that many parts are interchangeable across different versions so engines could be updated to some extent.

David

[tankmodeler]

David,

I certainly would have thought that the engines would have been changed, but I thought one of the reasons that the exhausts came inside and the air cleaners went outside was that the arrangements of the piping were different enough that the changes had to be made. I know that Rams in Canada that were built with the Wright and later changed to the Continental all had the air cleaners and exhausts relocated with plugs welded into the holes in the rear engine plate.

We'll probably never know, of course, but in any case these would be special vehicles with special maintenance needs and thus are interesting to see in the field.

Paul

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hello Paul,

Glad you like the pictures.

Originally Posted by tankmodeler

Wow! Great photos and showing very interesting details on each. The colour still shows a Kangaroo, but with at least two grab bars welded to the hull as visible in the photo. Normal wisdom has it that these were only on the Wallaby ammo carriers, but apparently at least some Brit 'Roos had them added in the field.

Normal wisdom is right, the rungs or hand rails were not fitted to Kangaroos. But in practice, Gun Towers were converted into Armoured Personnel Carriers (see Mark Tonner's recent articles on this subject), of which the hand rails and rear towing hook were not removed. So externally at least they still looked like Gun Towers, but were in facts APCs.

The B&W photos show what had to be an absolutely rare beast, A Kangaroo made from a Ram with the Wright version of the radial engine (the external mufflers are the giveaway). Given that these needed 100 Octane gas, they would have been a bear to find gas for in the field with everything else using 87 octane. Would not have thought any were converted to 'Roos for that reason, especially given the supply situation in late 44.

I understand your excitement, but I cannot see such a special vehicle with special maintenance needs surviving in the field in 1944.

As pointed out by David Herbert - a veritable Ram expert I might add - chances are that this late during the war, Wright R975-EC2 engines would have been replaced by R975-C1 (or -C4) radial engines, simply because they would no longer be supported by the supply system. And changing them over was relatively easily: if not during conversion, then by the time the original R975-EC2 was worn out, it would have to be replaced by a -C1, simply because EC-2's were no longer to be had from store supplies.

Hanno

[John McGillivray]

Look at this Canadian Newsreel at the 7:57 time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vvVsVU2KhE

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

A couple more of which I think we have not seen before. Pictures were taken at 't Woold near Winterswijk, and are dated 31 March 1945. According to the source, a fierce fight was fought at 't Woold during which several dozens of German and English soldiers died. Looks like at least four Kangaroos were knocked out.

Colourised photo from:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/miss...71622#p1671622

3B0A89F5-8C1F-491B-A487-AED6531E84DD.jpeg

[kevinT]

Hi Hanno here are a few more Kangaroos from 49th APCR

Blackpool
Captor
Comet
King John
Mars
Merlin
Neptune
Raider
Revenge
Rotherham
Spear
Tapir
Todmorden

[kevinT]

Pictures only