Project PHOENIX

[cmp_uc_guy]

Hi all...

I am Interested in putting together a CMP Halftrack as seen in this soft skin forum.

Can anyone hook me up with additional pictures or actual details on this vehicle?

[Phil Waterman]

If I remember correctly there are a whole series of photos of that truck.

[Mike Kelly]

Is this the vehicle ?

[Stewart Loy]

Rob,

What a project - and you would be the only one on your block with one!

The pictures make it look like a great load carrier. With that fugly cab and those tracks it may even be more impractical than your Carrier.

Please keep me informed, I guess I need to get up to Barrie and see you soon.


Stewart

[cmp_uc_guy]

Thanks for the pics guys, its always nice to be able to come here for some information,

Now to get the image software fired up and zoom in on those pics... It looks interesting how they afixed the track running gear!
I bet the Ford F60X (that no one thinks exists) would go good for this project!

Stewart, No excuses, just come visit! but wait until I've finished reconstructing my sons honda civic and I have something interesting in the garage to show you. (Not long now)

[cmp_uc_guy]

I think its canvas on a metal frame!
Thats kind of cool!

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by cmp_uc_guy

Stewart, No excuses, just come visit! but wait until I've finished reconstructing my sons honda civic and I have something interesting in the garage to show you. (Not long now)

Rob,
how are you attaching carrier tracks to the Civic?

[cmp_uc_guy]

See how easy it is when you have Corel photo paint!

[Keith Webb]

Well done that man!

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's a picture of the remains of a carrier-IHC truck hybrid that's sitting in a Sask. farmyard. I don't know anything about how it worked but it's interesting anyway.

[Stewart Loy]

OK - how does it steer?

I have studied the pix and cannot see any linkages or other control methods for the track set.

I have never looked closely at any halftracks - do they use the tracks to turn? Or is it all done the olde fashioned way with the tracks providing only the forward motivation, and the front wheels the steering?

It could not be more confusing and complicated than my Universal Carrier steering.


Stewart
: :

[cletrac (RIP)]

The IHC-carrier hybrid just used the front wheels to steer. The tracks had a differential so that should have worked OK. I always thought that was how all halftracks steered but I'm not positive.

[cmp_uc_guy]

I would hook up the track brakes in the cab just for fun, can you imagine being way up there when that thing swung around!

[Wayne Henderson]

What a great vehicle and a Chev... Must be all that power in the 216!
The German Ford/Mauser had 2 handbrakes mounted in the centre of the cab floor, turn the steering wheel and grab a handbake to aid in turning. More so in rough or loose ground. Unlike the US halftrack designs this truck has the diff at the rear, as the carrier did.

[Rod Diery]

Originally posted by cmp_uc_guy
Now to get the image software fired up and zoom in on those pics... It looks interesting how they afixed the track running gear!
I bet the Ford F60X (that no one thinks exists) would go good for this project!

A Ford F60X????? Please tell me more
Cheers
Rod

[Bob Carriere]

Wayne as the right concept...... back in the days of dune buggies ...(Yeah I know I'm old) once you removed all the body weight off the power trian the darn thing would not steer worth a pinch of coon s*** in loose sand unless you rigged up two independent lever to actuate the rear mergency brake.... worked like a charm. So unless you have a lot of weight on the front wheels be prepared for a lot of skidding on loose ground let alone going up a steep hill....

BUT... I have a question about the rear suspension. On a real halftrack don't they have some form of spring suspension or do they rely on the central mounted system to pivot and the boggies to flex????

That universal suspension looks very stiff.....

Now would you install the rear drive sprocket at the front and reduce the lenght of the drive shaft or have a long vulnerable drive tube to the normal rear drive axle.....??? again I beleive the White and Intern. had the drive axle up front.... could the front drive axle be mounted on springs and the trailing tracks be on air inflated coil bags ....

Now... if only I can remember where that abandoned UC is North of Maniwaki.... got a C60 frame...I would be almost there.... but I would use the largest GM six I could find ....now what to tell the wife??? It's going to be a long Winter....

[chris vickery]

Shame, Shame, It's kinda of a mutt - who ever came up with the idea of marrying a quality Ford product with a Chev! I could see using ALL Ford...

[Mike Kelly]

The AWM here has archive film of the tracked truck .

It is available to anyone at a price

The AWM web site

http://piction1.awm.gov.au/pls/picti...=internetg&pw=

Mike

[Colin]

Most of the half tracks did not have steering brakes and relied on the front wheels to turn. this made them dogs to manouver. Even the Landrover halftrack in the 80's had this problem which killed it. Even a manual brake for each track would help a lot. I was really surprised when I found out about this issue, as it seems so apparent. I don't know if the Germans came up with a solution. A dual action brake Master cylinder hooked to the brake lines would also work I think.

Originally posted by Colin
Most of the half tracks did not have steering brakes and relied on the front wheels to turn. this made them dogs to manouver. Even the Landrover halftrack in the 80's had this problem which killed it. Even a manual brake for each track would help a lot. I was really surprised when I found out about this issue, as it seems so apparent. I don't know if the Germans came up with a solution. A dual action brake Master cylinder hooked to the brake lines would also work I think.

The half-track L/R was the Centaur (appropriately) using the Scorpion CVR(T) series track components and just three CVR(T) roadwheels; like all the half-tracks it too had the strong tendency to go straight on. Even 6WD Stalwarts will go straight on too with relatively minor encouragement on the right going, just ploughing two impressive furrows with the front wheels on full lock.

The German half-tracks (3/4 tracks really) had this sorted from day one from the Kettenkrad right through to the 18 ton Famo. The system is very similar to the UC, the steering drop-arm (or pitman arm for the US or near US) has an extended peg that rides in a slot just like the UC and beyond a few degrees of steering movement applies the appropriate brake via a strong spring.

The KK is entirely similar and the whole mechanism can be easily seen operating two tiny leaf springs connected to the brake cams; its all in the open directly in front of your feet!

It has always been a surprise the "Allied" vehicles didn't have such a relatively simple mechanism too.

Deriving something along these lines to operate the CMP rear axle handbrake rods individually does not seem to be too difficult, nor is a simple mechanism to have the handbrake operate the pair in unison. You may have to fiddle a bit by trial and error with the brake onset point and spring strength but it would make a world of difference.

Incidentally, the German half-tracks have track systems that are worthy of closer inspection and is well written up in a recent MVT "Windscreen"; the pad positions relative to the pins and track angles are carefully designed so the pad is laid on the ground minimising the skidding necessary as each link is rotated from the lead-in angle by the first roadwheel.

The links are supported on mating flat rubber surfaces around the sprocket and idlers making for smooth and near silent running, plus the sprocket drives with rollers into the track horns rather than plain teeth which together with the sealed needle roller bearings in each track pin afford quite incredible track life.

R.

[Bob Carriere]

Going down the street on dry pavement.... say on the way to the CWA parade.... and you mistakenly step on only one of the split break system and pull a full 180 at 20 miles an hours..... wooweeee!!!!

All farm tractors have split brakeing for the rear wheels which can make you spin in your own lentgh just like a tank which counter rotates the tracks .... real scary on my narrow front end 1950 Allis Chalmers.....

I can't see how the front wheels would steer much unlees the tires are soft... slow speed... on very sticky asphalt...

.... any idea of the cost of the film clip...

.... is anything similarly available in archives???? were all the protype and tests conducted in in Aussie land???

Seems to me I read somewhere that the Germans are recycled some left over Dunkirk UC tracks system on German trucks or even civvy model Chevs with some plywood cabs added for inclement weather..... or was that a Holleewood film????

Sure would like to know more how that odd ball was built.......

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Bob C.


I can't see how the front wheels would steer much unlees the tires are soft... slow speed... on very sticky asphalt...

.... any idea of the cost of the film clip...

Looking at the description of the AWM film clip, it mentions a close up of the foot levers, this surely must refer to some sort of steering brake on the tracks. As the distance between tracks and front wheels is so minimal it would be a neccesity to have steering brakes.

And Richard, as for your Stalwart wanting to plough straight on is more to do with the no-spin diff fitted, try a Saladin or Saracen and you will see how they steer so much better.

Richard

[Colin]

Until i win the lottery, I will have to pine away for any attempt to drive my favorite beast, the "Saladin" but I would happliy settle for a ride in any of the three!

Originally posted by Bob C.
All farm tractors have split brakeing for the rear wheels which can make you spin in your own lentgh just like a tank which counter rotates the tracks .... real scary on my narrow front end 1950 Allis Chalmers.....

Seems to me I read somewhere that the Germans are recycled some left over Dunkirk UC tracks system on German trucks or even civvy model Chevs with some plywood cabs added for inclement weather..... or was that a Holleewood film????

Sure would like to know more how that odd ball was built.......

To alleviate any possibility of an exciting moment in these half-tracks, the vehicle brakes are still the normal hydraulic all-wheel system with a single foot pedal and thus a bit more powerful than the mechanical operation which just helps the steering.

Counter-rotating tracks were and are done to this day with a Merritt-Brown controlled differential system, a truly fascinating device and worthy of an hours study of the outline drawing until the idea finally dawns. The key being the diff AND gearbox are driven in parallel, whereas everything else has the clutch then the gearbox and then the diff; plus the M-B box necessarily has the right brake steer the vehicle left and vice versa, the sticks being crossed into the steering brakes, reverse is fun though !

The German "Maultiers" (Mules) were simply half-track cargo trucks as opposed to the specifically built 3/4 track fighting vehicles. A potted history is well covered in the WWII Vanderveen "Bible" (P328), apparently the first being a field modification in Russia by SS Division "Das Reich" during '41/'42 using a Carden-Lloyd assembly, production versions used this in modified form (doubled road wheels) together with other indigenous designs but with Pz.I or II tracks.

It is perhaps not correct to assume all the assemblies were from vehicles captured at Dunkirk therefore; certainly, enough wheeled vehicles were taken there to be viable for re-manufacture into standard Wehrmacht types with specific bodies, the M-C PU and CS8 especially. My M-C friends here now have a growing archive of German prints showing formally converted British types and the current MVT "Windscreen" carries a fascinating article about one such example.

R.

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
And Richard, as for your Stalwart wanting to plough straight on is more to do with the no-spin diff fitted, try a Saladin or Saracen and you will see how they steer so much better.

Richard

Yes, most likely; I have to say though it does have to be glutinous terrain with an adverse camber that has comprehensively defeated most other things well previously. There is a drawback to everything, generally the double-ratchet device masquerading as a diff make a huge difference to the mobility, you do have to pre-empt its quirks on the road though.

Colin, it is a pity you're the otherside of an ocean; a thrash about in my Silly-wot is no problem, both thrashing through the mud and driving into a lake is no problem and huge fun; meeting its prodigious fuel thirst and maintenance regimes that approximate painting the Forth Bridge are not; but someone has to do it :

R.

[Colin]

Thank you for the offer, if I get over to your side of the pond I shall be happy even to take a look at it and discuss the merits over a pint. cheers

Originally posted by Colin
Thank you for the offer, if I get over to your side of the pond I shall be happy even to take a look at it and discuss the merits over a pint. cheers

Any time, you're welcome; but as Mr. Binnington-Wall well knows, mine will be a pint of tea. I'm way off-topic here for this area, so before the esteemed and revered Mr. Wallington-Binn fetches me a very hard smack, I'd better pop off.

All the best,

R.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by FV623
The German "Maultiers" (Mules) were simply half-track cargo trucks as opposed to the specifically built 3/4 track fighting vehicles. A potted history is well covered in the WWII Vanderveen "Bible" (P328), apparently the first being a field modification in Russia by SS Division "Das Reich" during '41/'42 using a Carden-Lloyd assembly, production versions used this in modified form (doubled road wheels) together with other indigenous designs but with Pz.I or II tracks.

It is perhaps not correct to assume all the assemblies were from vehicles captured at Dunkirk therefore;

Richard,

You are quite right the Maultier track system was patterned on Carden-Lloyd system. Now, was the first Maultier converted using parts from Bren/Scout/Universal Carriers or Vickers Light Tanks captured at Dunkirk? The Vickers Light Tanks used two double-wheel bogies too...

Two years ago I discussed this at Beltring with Baron Paulus von Hocking and David Herbert, and it was concluded the Germans must have manufactured parts for the conversion of trucks as of the Ford V3000S Maultier alone some 14,000 were built, with another 4,000 or so of the Opel Blitz variant. Much larger numbers than could be catered for by cannibalisation of captured British AFVs.

Also, there are engineering differences in track, sprocket and road wheels (see pictures of a surviving Ford V3000S Maultier). Although I have not seen a Maultier in the flesh we did find a Maultier road wheel for sale on one of the stalls at Beltring and noted it was much wider and of entirely different construction than the standard Universal Carrier road wheel - not a surprise when you know Pz.I/II track was used (instead of Carrier track like popular belief has it). Possibly only the bogie casting was copied, although I wonder if that would pass a gründlich scrutiny by German engineers - remember the answer the German Army got after asking German industry to copy the Soviet T34 tank?

Regards,
Hanno

[king of obsolete]

a fellow in northern manitoba, dug one what that was buried when the military was finished in the north. a good freind of mine works for the manitoba gov and was flown in to see the digging up of the machine to insure there was no enviroment problems. the fellow is now restoring the half track. thanks

[Keith Webb]

Originally posted by Mike Kelly
The AWM here has archive film of the tracked truck .

It is available to anyone at a price

The AWM web site

http://piction1.awm.gov.au/pls/picti...=internetg&pw=

Mike

Mike - i went to the AWM on Tuesday to look at archive footage for the series of programs we're making for the Temora Aviation Museum and had a quick look at this film... it actually shows the full track truck, not the CMP based one. The footage is excellent though.
Incidentally, the AWM has a reading and viewing area where you can go to look at timecode display VHS copies of many of the films in the archive. A most diverting way to spend a day!
This is the tracked truck in the film, although the pic was take at a different location (AWM pic)

D Number:
069097




Physical description:
Black & white

Summary:
CAIRNS, NORTH QUEENSLAND, AUSTRALIA. 1944-08-30. PERSONNEL OF THE ROYAL AUSTRALIAN ARTILLERY, THE ROYAL AUSTRALIAN ENGINEERS AND THE AUSTRALIAN ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL ENGINEERS OF THE 6TH DIVISION CONDUCTING TRIALS OF A PILOT MODEL TRUCK TRACKED 1 TON IN ORDER TO FIND THE BEST VEHICLE OF THAT TYPE FOR ACTIVE SERVICE CONDITIONS. FOR A COMPARISON TEST A TD9 TRACTOR WAS SUBMITTED TO THE SAME TESTS. AFTER TESTING THE VEHICLE IN SOFT SAND ON THE BEACH AND IN LIGHT SCRUB AND OVER MARSHY GROUND, THEY WERE FURTHER TESTED OVER TIDAL MUD FLATS. AFTER THE FINAL TEST, CARRYING A LOAD OF ONE TON, THE LOAD WAS REMOVED AND THE VEHICLES WERE DRIVEN STRAIGHT OUT OVER THE TIDAL MUD FLATS IN ORDER TO FIND OUT HOW FAR THEY WOULD PENETRATE THE MUD AREA. IT WAS FOUND THAT THE TRUCK TRACTED 1 TON WAS ABLE TO VENTURE MUCH FARTHER OUT THAN THE TD9 TRACTOR. THIS PHOTOGRAPH SHOWS THE TRUCK TRACKED 1 TON MAKING THE UNLOADED TEST.