MKI rifle and MG stowage

[Lynn Eades]

Yep Brad can do, but I have to for-warn you, the middle bit on mine is yellow. I should be able to get it out of the shipping container in about a year, and then it's down to what ever it costs to ship it half way around the world....and then back again!
Hey its your best offer so far! (Sorry Brad ...just couldn't help myself)

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by rob love
I just noticed on the overhead photo of the carrier something that is foreign to me. What is the item located between the right headlamp and the horn? I don't recall there being anything mounted in that location; is it a siren perhaps? Maybe they were trying to appeal to the Americans, who seem to like that sort of thing.

Hi Rob..
Being on Nigels carrier it is probably the anti wog whacker alarm....
Maybe he can clarify....

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rob love
[B]Another common question also related to the 11 set, is what the little tray on the left armoured radiator cover was for. I'm talking about the tray which has the two small arms brackets built onto the end of it. There is a box which holds the couplings for the 11 set, which fits into this tray. I have never seen one; does anyone have more info on this box?

Coupler C in that little tray:

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Canadian Marconi made, 1941. British ones had black faces (Tony, this last is in no way comparable to your cheap yellow copy)

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Brad Mills
Talking about boxes and things that make smoke, would any one mind loaning me a signal cartridge box so I can make a copy of it for my carrier?

This is the small box that mounts to the right front engine cover.

Brad

The Aust and NZ Carriers mounted the cartridge box in the gunner's compartment next to the firing port. While similar in size and prupose, the Aust version seems to have the mounting tags in a different location. I don't have a "Today" pic, the one below is from the Driving Instruction Manual:

[rob love]

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
The proof may be in the pairs of small holes in the side of this bracket (at least on mine) that might suggest a pair of L-shaped brackets that make fitting of the C Coupler perfect.

[/B]

Bruce
If you are talking about the small holes just behind the stud, I believe those were put there when the rubber straps were replaced with canvas web straps.
Would the box fit in laying down, vs upright? Seems like normally the tray is a bit sloppy by the British exacting standards.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I recall a sheet metal insert with 4" diameter holes cut in it, probably spot welded in. Was this box only big enough to take 2 dischargers side by side, or 4 by stacking them? Otters and Fox have exposed bins for these made out of sheet metal, however a lot of the inserts on Mk.1 carriers are wood (grenade boxes, Bren spare barrel box for example).

Tony, thanks for the picture of the Australian signal cartridge box. It's a good thing those carriers were never used above the equator as, if they were, the gravity would cause all the flares to fall out when you opened the lid.

Rob, sideways? I never thought of that. Yes it should, but here I was thinking someone might want access to the controls in that location. Probably not though.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
It's a good thing those carriers were never used above the equator as, if they were, the gravity would cause all the flares to fall out when you opened the lid.

[alleramilitaria]

It's a good thing those carriers were never used above the equator as, if they were, the gravity would cause all the flares to fall out when you opened the lid.

owww that was a good one!!!

hey rob, you were right about the rear end for the WC we talked about. it has a hi / low selector on it. ow well mine wont.
dave

[Lynn Eades]

That what I've got. Thought they were lp2a sig. cart. boxes, (with yellow) ...And they come with wooden frames inside, as do the grenade boxes so I would guess that the smoke gen box could be the same.
And for Dave, Bruce, and Jiff ...it works down here. We southern hemisphere types have quick reflexes. I guess thats why you guys were limited to one mounting option.....I wonder how many gunners you guys lost while climbing over the back to get a flare cartridge?

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

...and how many gunners were wounded when squeezing their knees between the wireless set and this sharp-cornered box? The Austrailan version has the added advantage of being able to stomp the cartrigdes that are rolling about on the floor with a hob-nailed boot, thus firing them off without the aid of a very pistol.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Fair dinkum, you Northern Hemisphere dwellers are heathens. If you look at the attached image, surely logic would dictate that the Very flares, ergo their container, should be in close proximity to the Very pistol. But then again is logic and the Northern Hemisphere an oxymoron (whoops, big word for an Aussie).

Carrier Bob

[rob love]

On the Cdn carriers, the flare gun is mounted on a bracket to the right of the radio operator in the back. (the same bracket also has a dummy grease nipple for the end of the grease gun flex hose). Why would you need a flare gun in the front? It's a signalling device, not a fighting tool. Better to keep the front bombed up with offensive devices like Brens or Boyes. The flare gun is more at home with the radio set, which is also a signalling device.
Mind you, it's hard to apply reason to a vehicle which has been built completely upside down. Must be a bugger trying to pour oil into the engine, and hard on the eyes checking the electrolyte levels.

[Nigel Watson]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bruce Parker
[B]

Originally posted by rob love
Another common question also related to the 11 set, is what the little tray on the left armoured radiator cover was for. I'm talking about the tray which has the two small arms brackets built onto the end of it. There is a box which holds the couplings for the 11 set, which fits into this tray. I have never seen one; does anyone have more info on this box?

Coupler C in that little tray:

Bruce I'm still not convinced that this tray is for the No.11 set coupling box. It doesn't fit both in size or likely position, but hey I am a mere Scot in an isolated carrier world!

Also see that aerial mount on the Marconi set, can I have one please?

Rob and Alex the wee item between the headlamp and the horn is a travelling light. It was used when in convoy with the main headlamps out.

Guys I also need a signal cartridge holder. Can swap leather ammo bags or No.2 Aerial mount bracket for one!!

Nigel

[Nigel Watson]

Originally posted by rob love
On the Cdn carriers, the flare gun is mounted on a bracket to the right of the radio operator in the back. (the same bracket also has a dummy grease nipple for the end of the grease gun flex hose). Why would you need a flare gun in the front? It's a signalling device, not a fighting tool. Better to keep the front bombed up with offensive devices like Brens or Boyes. The flare gun is more at home with the radio set, which is also a signalling device.
Mind you, it's hard to apply reason to a vehicle which has been built completely upside down. Must be a bugger trying to pour oil into the engine, and hard on the eyes checking the electrolyte levels.

Rob I think the fellows from Ozland got it right because it was usually the officer in charge of the carrier section who would be in charge of signalling offensively or defensively or even chit chattingly!! And he normally rides up front. I can only presume the location of the flare pistol at the back on our carriers is perhaps the stowage position, on the move type of stowage in the same way the Boys or Bren would be stowed when not in immediate use, ie when travelling unattacked!!

Nigel

[rob love]

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
I recall a sheet metal insert with 4" diameter holes cut in it, probably spot welded in. Was this box only big enough to take 2 dischargers side by side, or 4 by stacking them? Otters and Fox have exposed bins for these made out of sheet metal, however a lot of the inserts on Mk.1 carriers are wood (grenade boxes, Bren spare barrel box for example).

I partially answered my own question tonight regarding an insert in the smoke discharger box. I opened the lid on an old rusty box, to find remnants of the plywood insert and also a 3/8" thick piece of felt on the bottom of the box.
It would appear that there were two of the plywood inserts,and that the smoke cannisters were stacked in 2 piles of 2 each. There are the remnants of the plywood at a little above the felt level, and there is the remnants of screws which would have held another one just below the bottom of the lid's hinge.
If theres interest, I'll try and photograph the remains tommorrow.

[Jordan Baker]

Rob,

Im interested in the pictures of rusty metal and rotted wood. So please post a picture or two if you can.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by rob love
Mind you, it's hard to apply reason to a vehicle which has been built completely upside down. Must be a bugger trying to pour oil into the engine, and hard on the eyes checking the electrolyte levels.

Ahh, but it's so much easier when you're working on one and greasy fingers drop a nut or washer, they don't fall down into some tiny nook or cranny on the floor!

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally posted by Nigel
Bruce I'm still not convinced that this tray is for the No.11 set coupling box. It doesn't fit both in size or likely position

Nigel

I'm not convinced either. I did say "I think" the coupler went there. This thinking is based on fit and that Mk.1 carriers were designed to take 11 sets. Every other wireless related bin or bracket has a corresponding 11 set article to fit it. My suggestion that the coupler goes there is based on that alone. Why I wonder if this is correct is because the coupler is used for a rather complictaed horizontal antenna which is not practical in a carrier. A 38 set fits nicely, but these weren't around until 1943. 11 sets never had a 'contol unit' like 19 sets so that this tray was for a connection between the wireless operator and the commander seems unlikely too. A remote unit would serve this purpose but is the wrong size.

[rob love]

The manual calls the bracket a "BRACKET ASSEMBLY, AERIAL MAST SECTIONS CLAMP". Was there a box which contained
some kind of couplers or unions for the antenna sections? Since the antenna is stored on the top of the engine cover, it wouldn't be unreasonable to keep an accessory of the antenna in that location.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of information on the 11 set. I was going to try and get one for my carrier, but I think I'm just going to settle for the 19 set instead.

Bruce; you mentioned before how you felt sorry for non-carrier owners who wouldn't understand any of this. I must say this is turning into one of the most interesting and informative threads on carriers I have run into. At this rate, soon we will have no mysteries left to solve on the standard carrier.

[Nigel Watson]

Originally posted by rob love
The manual calls the bracket a "BRACKET ASSEMBLY, AERIAL MAST SECTIONS CLAMP". Was there a box which contained
some kind of couplers or unions for the antenna sections? Since the antenna is stored on the top of the engine cover, it wouldn't be unreasonable to keep an accessory of the antenna in that location.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of information on the 11 set. I was going to try and get one for my carrier, but I think I'm just going to settle for the 19 set instead.

Bruce; you mentioned before how you felt sorry for non-carrier owners who wouldn't understand any of this. I must say this is turning into one of the most interesting and informative threads on carriers I have run into. At this rate, soon we will have no mysteries left to solve on the standard carrier.

It looks as if perhaps there should be a box there which stowed the aerial mast sections clamps. Maybe a spares box and perhaps made in wood hence no one has seen one!!! The parts list certainly mentions a webbing strap and bolts which would indicate something requiring retension!!

Nigel

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Why does the 3" mortar carrier have this bracket too? Why does it have a different part number?

CTL 487 SA is a CLAMP - AERIAL MAST SECTIONS. This is the one on the engine cover that holds the three 4' by 7/8" diameter aerial sections. That CTL 13282 B and C21UCM 13282 use the same wording, are we even sure these are the right parts? CTL 13056 (where the arrow points to on the overhead diagram) is a web strap. I can't make out the part number on my bracket, can anyone read what part number this is? Is the nomenclature in the parts book an error? (maybe it should be "Bracket, Spacer, Paired Rifle Clips")

Nigel, are the fastening straps for the rifle clips? Is the real purpose of this bracket simply an extension so the rifle clips will clear the battery underneath?

I did some more digging on the 11 set and can't find any reference that the aerial sections require 'clamps'. The 11 set installation in the Otter manual doesn't have any clamps or any component matching the size of this carrier bracket. The spare parts and spare valves boxes don't fit either.

I'm almost sticking to my coupler theory. This unit allows the wirekless set aerial to be located up to 30 feet from the set, which would be good if one wanted to get better reception by relocating the aerial away from the concealed vehicle.

And just to show we are still thinking about our Australiean cousins (lest they get bored with all this Canadian/British carrier talk), here is a picture of that sideways mounted signal cartridge box in living colour. (heck, they probably glued the cartridges in)

[Nigel Watson]

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
Why does the 3" mortar carrier have this bracket too? Why does it have a different part number?

CTL 487 SA is a CLAMP - AERIAL MAST SECTIONS. This is the one on the engine cover that holds the three 4' by 7/8" diameter aerial sections. That CTL 13282 B and C21UCM 13282 use the same wording, are we even sure these are the right parts? CTL 13056 (where the arrow points to on the overhead diagram) is a web strap. I can't make out the part number on my bracket, can anyone read what part number this is? Is the nomenclature in the parts book an error? (maybe it should be "Bracket, Spacer, Paired Rifle Clips")

Nigel, are the fastening straps for the rifle clips? Is the real purpose of this bracket simply an extension so the rifle clips will clear the battery underneath?

I did some more digging on the 11 set and can't find any reference that the aerial sections require 'clamps'. The 11 set installation in the Otter manual doesn't have any clamps or any component matching the size of this carrier bracket. The spare parts and spare valves boxes don't fit either.

I'm almost sticking to my coupler theory. This unit allows the wirekless set aerial to be located up to 30 feet from the set, which would be good if one wanted to get better reception by relocating the aerial away from the concealed vehicle.

And just to show we are still thinking about our Australiean cousins (lest they get bored with all this Canadian/British carrier talk), here is a picture of that sideways mounted signal cartridge box in living colour. (heck, they probably glued the cartridges in)

Bruce I was referring to the 'clamps' that are used on the Engine Cover Protection Plate for carrying the aerial sections (look like wire tensioners!) Maybe spares of these were carried in a box in this bracket?

The wee pimples on either side of this bracket are for the rifle straps which have a hole with a slot in it which pops onto the pimple!! The same pimple can be found on the gunners slot firing rest. (Apologies for the technical terms!!).

I've tried fitting all sorts of .303 cartons, boxes, radio boxes etc into this bracket but nothing fits properly. The fact that there is only one strap indicates one box or one piece of equipment. I go with a snug fitting box because the hole underneath would allow for pushing it up perhaps! On a MkI* carrier you have stowage for every piece of equipment that it was designed to carry, well almost, certainly on the weapons side of things. Except that is for the Boys. You have a magazine holder on the front to the left of the firing slot but nothing else. Is there a Boys Ammo box or carton for the .55 which would fit there? The Boys mag ammo box is too big.

Nigel

[Jordan Baker]

Is there a chance for it fitting a Fullerphone. There is lots of references to them bieng used by carrier crews. Mostly with the FOO and Mortar varients.

Also woudl anyone out there have an extra one of these brackets that is surplus to their needs. My carrier is in need of one. Please PM me if you do.

[rob love]

Here is a photo of the smoke bomb storage box. You can see the remnants of the wood at the end. It seems to have a notched out area at the end of it...I wonder if this would hold a set of ballistite cartridges. You can also see the remnants of the tapping screws on the back wall. I just noticed another one, located 1/2" from the top through the hinge.

This was one of the boxes that came from out of the beach after being buried since the mid 60s.

Another mystery I could use some help on is in the following photo.

The round bracket shown mounts on the division plate just beneath the plate that all the conduit goes through. On the other side of the division plate is the seat bracket (shown attached to the round thing). I have seen this little round bracket twice, both on fairly early hulls. Any ideas?

Any ideas?

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Do you have any more pictures of the smoke box? Can you give me exact dimensions?

The tapping screws from the rear..are there matching ones in the sides or front? Is the lower plywood (just above the felt) held in by similar screws? If the lower plywood is loose, is it possible it is the upper one that has fallen?

I think 2 pairs of generators stacked is right, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out how you'd lift out the lower ones. I'm also thinking if there was an upper plywood insert with 4" holes cut in it, those self tapping screws wouldn't do a very good job holding it in place for long.

Is my recollection of a steel insert perhaps a portable one, ie. it held the two top rounds, then was lifted out revealing the lower ones?

Brad, can your fabricating guy recall anything else?

[rob love]

Bruce
I have removed the felt from the box and positioned the plywood pieces over their shadows on the felt. I'm pretty sure the plywood belongs there, as the felt has a bit of an impression where it sits. There would have been a piece of plywood at each end of the box. The remnants are there for the left side, and the impression is fairly deep on the right.
First photo is of the left side, with the remains of the end piece, and the second photo is of the right.



I can only see screws on the back, including a couple at the level of the lower plywood. The screws are located where the plywood would have the widest portions of wood, but I would agree that something is missing; perhaps more plywood support inside.
I found an old cotter pin inside the box, but I'm not sure it is related.
Lower box dimensions are 130cm wideX12.5 cm deepX 15cm high.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Nigel
I've tried fitting all sorts of .303 cartons, boxes, radio boxes etc into this bracket but nothing fits properly. The fact that there is only one strap indicates one box or one piece of equipment. I go with a snug fitting box because the hole underneath would allow for pushing it up perhaps! On a MkI* carrier you have stowage for every piece of equipment that it was designed to carry, well almost, certainly on the weapons side of things. Except that is for the Boys. You have a magazine holder on the front to the left of the firing slot but nothing else. Is there a Boys Ammo box or carton for the .55 which would fit there? The Boys mag ammo box is too big.

The Aust Carriers used the same mounting place for Bren Mag boxes as for the Boyes Mag boxes. If you look at Bob Moseley's stowage daigram above you will see 1 Bren Mag box on the left of the pic with a leather strap fitted to the lower footman loop. This is the position for the Boyes Mag box, the upper footman loop is for 2 Bren Mag boxes.

Originally posted by rob love
The manual calls the bracket a "BRACKET ASSEMBLY, AERIAL MAST SECTIONS CLAMP". Was there a box which contained
some kind of couplers or unions for the antenna sections? Since the antenna is stored on the top of the engine cover, it wouldn't be unreasonable to keep an accessory of the antenna in that location.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of information on the 11 set. I was going to try and get one for my carrier, but I think I'm just going to settle for the 19 set instead.

I have a carrying case for the "F" section antenna rods used with the 19 Set, which has little loops and clips along it's length. Could there have been a similar case clamped on this bracket for the 11 Set "D" aerial sections, or was this case mounted on the engine cover?

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
And just to show we are still thinking about our Australiean cousins (lest they get bored with all this Canadian/British carrier talk), here is a picture of that sideways mounted signal cartridge box in living colour. (heck, they probably glued the cartridges in)

I can tell by your spelling that you're referring to the New Zealanders! The NZ LP2A pictured is an early type fitted for the Vickers (by the stowage of the Vickers Ammo boxes, not by the obvious clue), yet has the angled cover over the Gunner's Port for the Bren.

[Nigel Watson]

Rob the other bracket you are asking about is the seat back support bracket on the carrier MkI*. It is fixed to something I can't make out. It is normally fixed to the bulkhead so whatever it is attached to is a later fixing!!!

Looks like we may be coming to the end of the Generator Bin dimensions of the inserts for the cartridges which is great. Look forward to seeing the first mockup!
Nigel