Another two carriers roll off the production line

[aj.lec]

Thats correct
Not too much of an issue on chassis for there was still enough heat to swell the rivet being mostly 1/2 inch or under diameter
Bit different story with amour and thicker plate
definately recomend whole heating and air hammers from either side

[martyn]

Hi thanks for your replys ithink ive done the right move by the sounds of it think if it was one or two rivets oxi would be ok but a whole carrier then the other one the chap uses 2 air hammers but not a forge its like a small box made from fire blocks and a big blow torch head and they heat one at a time iam looking forward to watch it being done.
will keep you informed on how its going when he starts it
cheers martyn

[Ledsel]

See if you can take some pictures!

[martyn]

Hi had a quote back from the rivetting chap sounds like hes a bit of a rip off merchant so back to plan A were doing it! have found some tools and we are making some sample plates to practice on then if were happy bite the bullet and crack on. will take photos as were doing it and post them soon should be under way in a couple more weeks.
cheers martyn

[kevin powles]

Martyn, Good luck with the riviting. I think you wont regret it, best to do it yourself and then you know its done right. Did you get those parts i left at Shauns place?.

[RichardT10829]

Martyn i will have an ask about with a few contacts up here in Newcastle (being a ship building town and a small community) someone will know someone if you catch my drift ! I will go down to the yards tomorrow it will keep your options open.

can i have a rough idea of how many need doing, and what gauge etc the rivets are.


Rich

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by martyn

have found some tools and we are making some sample plates to practice on

Here's a handy tool for rivetting tanks

[Ledsel]

Do you notice that they aren't wearing any ear protection? Or eye for that matter. but they do have gloves.

[cantankrs]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here's a handy tool for rivetting tanks

Hi Hanno,

Great picture and I really appreciate you finding and posting it here. That's the kind of squeezer I was talking about (M3 Medium tank too). The one I've seen in a bit of movie footage of a similar arsenal only had a narrow throat maybe 4", this one has a huge thoat it appears. I've read that a 3/4" hot rivet requires 28ton (Google should locate a calculator). But Martyn's only talking 1/4 - 3/8th" at a guess so doesn't have to be so hefty. If a frame could be fabricated along with suitable rivet snaps, and an electric-hydraulic powerpack and a suitable jack to match could be borrowed from some place like a truck or other heavy equipment workshop, or even hired from any hire shop, then that would be far less effort than bashing them. The hull would generally be riveted from bottom working upward so with planning a wide throat may not be necessary. A couple of days with the right gear and it might all be done!

That makes it all sound so easy - but gauging the right amount of pressure would require some practice on something less important.

And Ledsel is right re the minimal safety gear. I've hardly ever seen eye protection in old pics except in the super high risk jobs. They might have used some cotton wool stuffed in their ears.

Regards

Alex

[Grant, Val, Ferret, WM20, CMP's]

[Lynn Eades]

Kevin, Can you post a better quality picture please. Alex, My guess is that this is a "rotary riveter" I have a gun(C.P.) which can do a good job, but easily smears the rivet sideways, if the operator is not square on.

[cantankrs]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Alex, My guess is that this is a "rotary riveter"

Hi Lynn,

Thanks for the possible clue but I can't find much info on a rotary riveter. Does it simultaneously compress the rivet and have a rotary action at the forming end that slowly spins down the head to form?

I've seen other footage of an M3 Medium tank hull lower side plate which is roughly 2' high and about maybe 1.25" thick being riveted to the bottom angle and there appear to be 2 additional hot rivets already situated in two holes ahead of the squeezer. The footage only shows one guy and he's using what looks like a foot control cos he's kind of pumping it up and down (his action looks like he's using a big version of a pneumatic tyre foot pump) but assume he's feathering a foot valve to control the pressure/power similar to trying to get a fuel bowser up to a round dollar with your hand. And the 'jack' on the squeezer looks like about a 3-stage jack even though each stage only appears to be about 6" in extension. I'm presuming a very quick action to set the rivets and to reposition the squeezer (which would have significant mass) for them to have additional hot rivets waiting. I think the rivets are hot because they appear whiter than anything else in the B&W footage.

Regards

Alex

[Lynn Eades]

I think the rotary idea, is so that the rivets end up symetrical, and yes they will be hot. That way as they cool, they pull up tight,as well as spreading to fill the holes, so that there is no movement in shear.

[martyn]

Hi we had a trial run at rivetting on friday and found out that you can use a kango braker or two and thats enough to do the job were having a bit of difficulty guaging the lenth of the rivet and getting a good finsh but that will come with practice have got a few photos of us messing around hope you find them as funny as it was trying this for the first time.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by martyn

Hi we had a trial run at rivetting on friday and found out that you can use a kango braker or two and thats enough to do the job

Brilliant! Looks like a great job.

So, how many rivets does a Carrier count?

- Hanno

[Ledsel]

That looks damn good.

[aj.lec]

Looking good Martyn
I think the length depends a bit on how much clearance in the hole but the ones I did worked well at 1 diameter for 1/2 inch rivets per head and 1.25 for 3/8 inch as these seemed to compress more
Kangas look to do a nice consistent head .Well done

[Lynn Eades]

There is a formula for the length of the rivet. Anyone know how it goes?

[tankbarrell]

For a round head it should be 1.5 X rivet diameter. We will be starting to rivet a Ram back together soon and that has 3/8", 1/2", 5/8" and 3/4" dia. I have a large pneumatic rivet gun to do this but have not tried it yet......

[martyn]

Hi all thanks for the info on rivet lenght, i counted 785 rivets in a compleet carrier depending on what type but bear in mind ive made my floor plates from one sheet and just made the holes at the front for show so iam about 50 rivets short there anyway its enough to keep me going for a few weeks with the two carriers, i have made a forge to warm the rivets and have a oxi/ propain on hand to warm as needed should be a fun couple of weeks will take photos and let you know how things go thanks martyn

[Lynn Eades]

I have a C.P.gun like this.

[Grant Bowker]

A "Pre-owned Chicago 'C' Frame Air Riveter Model 450"
http://www.alexdavisassoc.com/print/...-9615_page.htm
I haven't looked to see what the capacity if the riveter is, but it looks like a hefty piece of kit.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Ammunition reloading presses have all sorts of deflection problems to bear in mind. A simple cheap C-press will be fine for very light duty steps, but to do heavier more crunchy steps, the only ones worth using have 2 guides bars and form a letter H. Something to keep in mind if you are going to fabricate a rivetter of your own.

[George McKenzie]

My friend riveted his carrier with a air hammer made by Power Fist for $40 It weights 6 LBS an comes with an assortment of tools of whitch you can convert one for round head rivets You need a helper to hold the back side with a heavy bar ,shaped to fit a round head rivet while the other end is hammered .This is a light tool ,will get into tight places and don't take much air George

[Philliphastings]

Thanks to all for the information being posted.

I had it in the back of my mind to 'cheat' so to speak and use Ht coach bolts to replace the two side panels on the scout carrier (farmer brown had literally cut plough blades out of both armour plates.

My question is -

Has anyone else taken the short cut with coach bolts and
once fitted up and painted, is it obvious that the heads don't match ?

I can rivet if it's absolutely necessary but it's not something I have the skills or equipment to do myself and I hate having to outsource anything.

Cheers

Phill

[Ron Pier]

Part of the front armour on my carrier had been replaced with round head bolts before it came to me. I might have done it differently had I been involved, but it doesn't notice enough for me to worry about. One observation though, I've noticed modern coach bolts have a flatter dome than the older type. I'd be more inclined to get my local engineer to make me some with the correct head shape.

[Philliphastings]

Hello Ron, thanks for the reply

I have looked at a lot of different sources for coack bots and as you say the dome is quite flat. One thought I had in mind was to machine the heads of all the bolts to replicate the rivet dome. A long and very tedious exercise but thats still a long way down the track.

Cheers

Phill

[Philliphastings]

sorry to hijack the thread and of course I meant to type 'Coach Bolts but i amd slightly dyslexic

Cheers

Phill

[kevin powles]

Hi, Get a 3/8" shank snap head (round head rivet) 1/2" long, drill it out to take a 5/16" BSF thread, tap it.

Take a 5/16" shank mushroom head rivet 1 1/2" long, and cut a 5/16" BSF thread.

Cut the mushroom head rivet length down to suit the thickness of plates you are joining together.Thread the two together, if you wind the snap head in with mole grips the mushroom head will bind as you turn.

This gives an exact apperance of the correct rivet, mushroom head to the outside of the carrier.

If you want to go a stage further, heat up each side of the rivet until cherry red and then hit it with a the correct rivet snap to give it the apperance of an applied rivet, i have found this is only really necessary for the snap head type rivet on the inside, just to give it that used look.

The outcome gives an exact replication of the carrier rivets on the front armour, every rivet will look spot on.

I have done all my front armour rivets like this.

Only draw back is it a bit time consuming preparing the rivets. I have a technique for holding the rivets for drilling and threading if any ones interested i will expand further. done 40 yesterday.

thank kevin.

[RichardT10829]

kevin i had a simlar idea about that, can you email me some pics of yours, i maight as well start prepping up rivets now


Rich

[martyn]

Hi i have just spent the last four days riveting one and a half of my carriers, i had thort about the bolts idea but i think that for the extra time and effort needed you might as well do it with rivets.
this is what we did first make a forge the trick is to keep the rivets cherry red 2nd get some old chisle for the hammers and shape the ends to fit your rivets 3rd hire 2 kango hammers and just try a few its not that hard and i feel well happy knowing my carriers are rivetted and that ive done them. some rivets might not look that nice but so what nothing that a grinder and a coat of paint wont cure ive put up some photos will take some close ones and put them up later

thanks martyn