Reproduction UC Track availability?

[Ron Pier]

Jordan I'm just trying to get my head round what you said about drilling out or sleeving would alter the sprocket meshing? Firstly I'm sure it would be easier said than done!!

But if you used over size pins or re sleeved the tracks for standard pins, the pin centres would remain the same with no meshing problems...I think Ron

[RichardT10829]

perhaps going the liquid cast rubber route may be an option, with the sprocket lugs being metal like a pin pushed through so to speak, along the lines of what Staman have done with the rubber sherman track it would be easier if the carriers were skid steer alone without the track warping system

[Lynn Eades]

But they are not, and rubber tracks would be great, and so would a Hagglund, but what we have are ww2 carriers.
Yes, drilling to an oversize is fine as long as you can deep drill, at the same time, following the old centers, which is nigh on impossible,when the wear has slotted the hole to one side. I would guess that the drilling will be more difficult, than the casting. Does anyone know if the links were cast with a hole in them, and just "finish" drilled, or was the whole thing drilled.

[ajmac]

Hoping to find that out very soon. Speaking to various machinists when you mention Mn Steel the phone usually goes dead Currently looking at alternate free machining steels with good wear resistance... If they are Mn Steel then the holes would most certainly have been cored as drilling solid bosses would have been a mass production nightmare!

[Wayne Henderson]

Our local (SE) Australian Carrier track version was cast with the holes in place. The rods or pins were cast sand and laid up in the boxes for the end pour. These original casting pattens were saved when State Engineering Works (SE) closed post war.

[Jordan Baker]

About the sprocket meshing. Sorry for the confusion. The problem would be that the track and sprocket both wear. Track wears out to the point that you've actually removed i think a maximum of 10 links. Now you go and re-drill them and fit oversized pins. It will tighten the whole track up again and you need those 10 links back. However now the spacing between links is different so it wont properly mesh on the worn out sprocket. Does that make more sense. Basicaly you'd also have to replace the sprocket and get it bang on. If you don't and one or the other (track or sprocet) is out they will wear each other out much faster.

[cantankrs]

Hi Wayne,

(Nice to meet you at Brookton back in March!)

Originally Posted by Wayne Henderson

These original casting pattens were saved when State Engineering Works (SE) closed post war.

Are you saying the patterns still exist?

Originally Posted by Wayne Henderson

The rods or pins were cast sand and laid up in the boxes for the end pour.

I think you're saying there that a molded sand 'core' was placed in the mold after the pattern was rapped and removed, such that the molten metal filled everywhere except the holes for the pins?

Regards

Alex

[Wayne Henderson]

Hey Alex.
There is a seperate mould for both pin holes. The pin holes were cast in sand and placed on the alloy frame. Metal goes in, sand falls out, there's the hole.

[George McKenzie]

I was just at my friends place and he has all his trackpads drilled over size .Made up oversize pins from cold rolled steel and harden them about 25ooo and is now assembling them If you harden them all the way they will brake NOTE if you take the pins out be sure to save the cast washers that will be put on the new pins .If you turn the sprocket backwards they will be like new unless they are badly worn .Friend Jim is going to rebuild a few sprockets .He does great work .There are two types of sprockets .One has a flange on each side ,the newer ones are flat on the sides from the top to bottom It will be almost impossible to get some one to do this unless you have a big checkbook

[colin jones]

Hi George, it is not very expensive to get new sprockets profile cut then case hardened. You just need to put it on CAD for them. I would estimate around $500 a pair. To save on material you could also segment them in Halves or thirds. That would save a lot of waste from the centre.
Colin!

[George McKenzie]

Good sujestion I have done Caterpillar crawler tractors under carriage and they had sections to replace the old ones. With so much interest in these carriers I can see where someone will be making them

[RichardT10829]

George your right, this issue is clearly in the back of all our minds, as time goes on less and less usable sections of track will be obtainable, those that are will be held ransome by the few that get theyre hands on them. it would be good if we could trace factory workers from the period who could go through the production process step by step. I need to sleep with someone at Staman methinks get them to make a production run of tracks..

[George McKenzie]

Before I got a carrier I was offerd a new set of tracks and wheels for $500

[ron]

Not wishing to hi jack this thread, but does any of our aussie members have any original Army specs for the material used in the track links?there must have been specs set out somewhere I have someone lined up to cast them and I see no problem in doing the machining for the holes, we will have to make up a jig to ensure that every hole is reamed the same, we dont want to use any old metal but want to do it the way that they were made, we have some very clever people on this forum,and I reckon someone out there would beable to find the original specs in Canberra or elsewhere, I do realise that I can get a metalurgic test done but it would be much easier to see the original specs,
Lets see if we can get this thing done here, Regards Ron

[ron]

Just have a look at this pic, one link at a time and the job is done

[cantankrs]

Great pic Ron!

Alex

[ron]

On the subject of casting new track,I have several sections of N O S track , this morning I was looking for a single link to get a quote on, of interest is the makers name Malco, just wondering if this is the same firm here in Aust that made cast iron cooking stoves under the name of Malles ?, next all of the track that I looked at had A 42,I gues this was either Army? or Aust, and the 42 was simply the year,
Next one is a strange one, every link is numbered differenty this section is numbered 70.27/16.48.79.1.13.70.74.20.14.6.1.20.66.18.62.20.61.no w the question is how many moulds did they use and was this system of numbering a form of quality control? in other words if say number 70. was faulty that would tell them that mould 70 was buggered,
Sorry for this little rant but its all part of our interest I feel,
Regards Ron

[Lynn Eades]

I have looked at some track here and came to the same conclusions as you, that the moulds were numbered, so that any problems could be quickly isolated.
PS. Its not a rant, its good thought provoking material. If people like you didn't do this stuff the forum would be usless and boring.... and,.. we wouldn't learn anything.

[ron]

Hello Lyn,
Good to hear from you,thanks for your comments, now all we have to do is find a few moulds,you never know it may still be possable,but in the meantime I will see what I can do with a pattern maker,I canot see a problem with the machining,its only time after all, by the way did you locate a steering wheel? Regards Ron

[ron]

Hi Lyn please check your P M
Regards Ron

[cantankrs]

Originally Posted by Wayne Henderson

These original casting pattens were saved when State Engineering Works (SE) closed post war.

Ron, Wayne wrote the above earlier in this thread, about Fremantle built carriers. I'm not clear on whether it's one or more track link patterns and/or some coreboxes for molding the sand cores for the track pin holes. Even some photos of these patterns and or coreboxes could answer some questions.

Wayne, any chance of acquiring and posting some pics of said patterns?

It seems rather crazy that they would have cast track links individually. It seems to me more likely that they would have built up a match plate of link patterns arranged in a radial fashion and then perhaps even stacked and clamped these 'flat' molds so that they were pouring what would result in a 'tree' of tracklinks once the sand was shaken off. Much like Ford SV V8 piston rings were cast. Ron do your NOS good links clearly show grinding marks where the feeder and runners were cut off - that might provide more clues to how they were arranged during molding.
If they did it this way then pattern numbering becomes more interesting...

Regards

Alex

[David Ellery]

Hi guys, good subject this one, which in time is going to effect all of us one way or another! In regards to using new metal, is it not worth melting down the old track or does the process destroy the make up of the material ? As those who would be committed to buying new track ( and numbers I'm sure would help with the price ) could literally throw into the pot what buggered track they do have. Lynns right with the drilling side of it, I'm still mucking around with my drill press and jig so as to drill out flogged track ,I don't have the drill depth, the original holes are oval so those that I done have taken alot of work for not to much gain. Some of the biggest wear is to the side of the toe's of the track where it meshs with the next link. So even though I may have tightened up the track along the length a bit it is still sloppy with sideways movement.

[ron]

Hi Alex I dont think that there are any grinding marks on my unused track but will check it in the moring, I have quite a bit of it and will have a good look, Regards Ron

[cantankrs]

Originally Posted by ron

Hi Alex I dont think that there are any grinding marks on my unused track but will check it in the moring, I have quite a bit of it and will have a good look, Regards Ron

Hi Ron,

Appreciate you looking into that.

I believe the links must have had feeder and riser and possibly runner metal protruding from them. Depending on the thickness of this attached metal from the pour, it would have been broken off or sawn off and if it was impracticle to leave it without further finishing they'd have ground the worst protrusions off the link.

Also look for fairly straight thin broken off or ground sections, often along long edges where flash may have been removed where the drag and the cope (the two parts of the mold) were joined together. This is known as the parting line. Sometimes the sharp sand corners on either side of the parting line break off a bit before the drag and cope is assembled and this results in what would have been a bit of metal protruding along that seam. These parting lines may appear not all in the same plane because a mold may consist of not just 2 but 3 or more parts (not counting cores).

[inserted 8/6/2010 - Another reason for Parting lines to not appear in the same plane is if the cope and drag faces are not in a flat plane - they may slope in plane too. As far as I can work out, in sand molding lateral thinking is the name of the game. The shape of the object to be cast dictates the complexity of the mold and so long as the basic rules of creating a functional, safe, mold are followed, and the simplest outcome (for economy) is chosen, then how the mold is comprised is left to the talent and skills of the foundryman. Just as important as the ramming and extraction of the pattern/pattern-pieces is the cutting of the feeder, runners and risers so that the metal flows in the desired manner and contaminants are trapped where they are of no consequence, and weight of the metal keeps the casting filled during cooling, and shrinking is controlled as much by design as possible.]

Look at anything cast in metal and it usually has such marks unless it was machined and/or finished all over.

Drop forged (stamped) items like spanners, etc also have evidence of flash most of the way around that is still fairly obvious. yadaa yadaa

Alex

[ron]

Hi Alex, just grabbed the first piece that I could, the pics show both ends and sides,along with the number4 on this piece and the makers name Malco,I forgot to mention that on the inside of both of the horns there is a small area that is rased with the letter A and 43,( Aust and the date I would think) these plates must have been attached to the original patterns and are approx one and a half inches long by about one quarter of an inch wide, you can even see the slotted heads of the screws used to attach them,says a lot for the quality of the workmanship in the foundry,hope the pics are of interest, I will dig out some better track if needed in a couple of days,
Regards Ron

[Ian Patrick]

The National Archives of Australia www.naa.gov.au has a large number of "Test Instructions" for carrier tracks (amongst other things).
Under "record search" on their website type in "carrier tracks".

A few examples of the instruction titles that they have are;
Test Instruction No 73 - Test No M144-145 - 1 set carrier tracks and sprockets from Eastern Command (partly used)
Test Instruction No 273 - Test No M381 - 1 No set of new carrier tracks (same make), 1 No set of new carrier sprockets [includes one bound copy of report]
Test Instruction No 218 - Test Nos M316-325 - Carrier tracks of five different makes [includes 1 bound copy of report]
Test Instruction No 158 - Test No M274 - Carrier tracks ex Keach Castings
Test Instruction No 2 - Test No 3 - [MG] carrier tracks ex McKay Massey Harris

I would hazard a guess that the track specs would be in one of these reports somewhere.
All these records are kept in Melbourne so if anyone there can spare some time to duck into the archives and trawl through what will probably be pages and pages of useless information they may eventually stumble upon the track recipe...

Ian

[RichardT10829]

Fantastic work Ian well done.... thanks for doing that ! i only hope in amongst that lot there is the recipe for canadian/British pattern links.

[Wayne Henderson]

I dug out one of the original SE (State Engineering Works) pattens, no 37 and 38 in a long sequence.
This is the "main guts" of the patten, there is also a plate guide and pin blocks, but it will give you an idea of the work that went into producing track links.
As I don't post pictures (don't ask) I'll send the images on to crankytank.

[cantankrs]

Originally Posted by ron

...the pics show both ends and sides...hope the pics are of interest...

Hi Ron,

Were you attaching some pics or have I just got my wires crossed?

Regards

Alex

[ron]

Hi Alex, Sorry mate the computer would not let me send them yesterday so will try now