Info needed: Trailer socket Humber one ton

[chrisgrove]

Hi Robert

Thanks for the gen on the number plate. The only query I have is about when you say the right mudguard. All the later ones I have seen have the number plate mounted on the outrigger to the left (looking from the rear) of the tailboard. But if there is a conduit for the cable on the right, that must be correct for the early ones. I understand you drive on the right (correct) side of the road (ie the left), so it seems unlikely that a trailer in Oz got the number plate on the other side!

What is the Butler convoy light - I've never heard of that? The ones I've seen have a plate, seemingly painted white, fixed under the trailer to the left of centre and \i have assumed that was the equivalent of the white painted differential form of convoy light, and would have had a lamp shining on it.

I have been making small scale models for 50+ years and all my British ones are in 1/76 as that was the only scale around (from Airfix) for army vehicles back in the 60s, so I don't want to change as then I can't display them together. But I have a lot of 1/72 ones too for French, Italian, Russian and post war German vehicles. 1/76 more or less matches the scale of the most common model railway models in UK, so I guess that was why Airfix chose it.

Chris

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by chrisgrove

What is the Butler convoy light - I've never heard of that? The ones I've seen have a plate, seemingly painted white, fixed under the trailer to the left of centre and \i have assumed that was the equivalent of the white painted differential form of convoy light, and would have had a lamp shining on it.

Hi Chris,
I think this is the FV number plate lamp, mounted at top of the number plate, it has a shield that can be turned to reduce the light emitted in blackout conditions. a similar lamp was fitted to the white convoy plate under the vehicle or trailer.
Looking at Robert's trailer it appears that there is a strip of metal standing proud down the right hand rear end of the body, where the tailboard shuts up, this could be the mounting point for the number plate on the early 1 ton trailers.
Richard

[Robert Sexton]

Hello Chris,I can't even think in the dimensions that you use or the fineness of the work. My good lady makes bobbin lace that does my head in for fineness ,skill and complexity.
Richard's description of the light is spot on.They were made by Lucas and common to many British vehicles, they were also fitted to the Australian made ACCO trucks and I had heard them referred to as "Butler"in that context. Richard is more likely to be correct than I.
My parts book says they are a Convoy/dashboard light,definitely fitted to the RH mudguard (offside)above the number plate.The Sankey trailer chassis included the mudguards in the build, the other uses(cargo body,water chiller,water tanker,generator) were added as a separate construction,all are attached between the mudguards and so present the same mudguard configuration.
Richard,the piece of steel that you can see in the pic I believe was added on by a previous owner as it had a length of chain attached and I presumed it was to hold the tailgate in a horizontal position.There is nothing in any of the publications or other pics that I have had that show any thing similar,the locking catches on the tailgate hold it in the vertical down position.
regards, Robert

[chrisgrove]

Hi Robert

I got on to Les Freathy (local modeller and author of several books on trucks) and asked him about the trailer. His answer was not encouraging, but he attached a pic of a water version of our favourite trailer which confirms exactly what you said about the number plate. I attach the pic - note it is from Les and for research only.

I also attach a pic of mine taken at the Beltring show a few years ago, which shows the white plate underneath which I assume is a form of convoy light. Now all I have to do is find (or make) some reflective Ts!

Chris

[john piercey]

Hi Robert,good to see photo of your Humber,looks pretty solid.
Today (3rd Dec) i am going to lightly sand doors /bonnet etc to see if i can unearth any old markings on my Fv 1601 but i am not hopeful, as you can sometimes see raised areas on old paint jobs indicating there may be something underneath,but nothing jumps out at me on my one,it all looks smooth and flat.
You were lucky to still have some markings present making it easy to shed some light on units etc.
its great to see the brilliant work going on and in to all vehicles on these forums and the wealth of knowledge that can be found out just by asking.
Cheers
John

[Robert Sexton]

John, certainly is a wealth of knowledge out there and very generous with it.I had always wondered what the brackets on the LH side of the tub were for, but a crowbar that looks like it should belong to a fettler's gang would never have entered my head.My truck is missing all of the tools but still has all the brackets with the tie down straps intact. I am short of one battery box and both battery box covers ,they are the only major items missing that I am aware of.I have yet to follow up with the 10LH about my vehicle , Dave had identified them as a the most likely original unit owner.I understand that Wayne Gardner from the Fremantle army museum is the 10LH man to talk to,he is a historian with a long active history with that unit. My Humber project has to go on the slow burner while I finish a resto job on a C60 water tanker that has a greater priority.The Sankey trailer for the Humber is finished restoration and I am at the wiring stage now.
regards, Robert

[john piercey]

Robert,i have both battery boxes but only one cover,i suspect when mine was painted red they may have removed brackets to make it easier to rub down then simply could not be bothered refitting them,unusual for a fire unit as they al seem to have shovels/rakes /picks and things fitted to aid in fire fighting.
This was unit 1 of 5 ,3 got sold off ages ago.1 burnt to the ground and prob pushed in to local tip or left in situ and this 1 was simply left in a paddock to rest for a while when the points played up,as far as i know they came straight from auction to be fire units could be from 1969 army disposal,as far as i know it has sat unused for 30 yrs.
So far on the lh door i seemed to have just rubbed thru to undercoat and red oxide primer with nothing revealed,will move on to rh door but i think same result will be the case.
Have just revealed some fairly minor rust in cab bottom around spare wheel door/rubber seal area will repair these sections then move on to roof and that should be pretty much it for rust repair with some minor surface rust needing a clean up elsewhere
john

[Richard.Moys]

Hi

Regarding your original question

The sockets are called Warner Sockets. Some trailers did have one fitted at the rear, and this is so that another trailer could be towed behind the first one and so on (More than would be a nightmare to reverse !). The British Army Warner plugs are made of rubber (see post 17 for photo) and do deteriorate with age, there is a similar US pattern that was used on some jeeps etc, these are moulded ‘plastic’ and can easily be rewired (I am pretty sure that they are interchangeable). My 1963 Rover8 has both Warner and standard 12pin Nato socket fitted.

Hope this helps
Richard

[Robert Sexton]

Thanks Richard, I had wondered if the drilled cross bar at the rear of the trailer was for another hitch as my trailer had the threaded piece to screw on the socket cap. I discarded the idea as not being practical, but subsequent pics and your confirmation proves otherwise.
The socket at the front of the trailer;was that used to connect to the towing vehicle via a piece with two male ends or did it have another purpose?
I have seen pics of trailers that look to have the connector permanently wired in as is with modern conventional trailer leads, if that was the norm then why the female socket on the trailer?
thanks for your help,
regards Robert.

[Richard.Moys]

Hi

Never seen a wired up socket on the front of a trailer before. I think that it is the stowage point for the towing cable as the contacts are exposed and not shhrouded in any way.

Have you seen this link http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread...khouse-trailer that show the drawings of your trailer. No rear trailer socket, which is standard.


With reference to my earlier post, I have seen a few with trailer sockets on the rear, but only a very few as it is not standard on any trailers that I know of. Just a thought has someone fitted the stowage socket to the rear of yours for some reason?

Cheers
Richard

[chrisgrove]

The link in the last post is most useful (though the drawings are of a 1/2 ton trailer and not a 1 ton). There are three pics (if you follow enough links and scroll down far enough) of the front of the 1 ton trailer (though an updated one compared to the one I am modelling - at least as far as the lights are concerned). None of these pics show a socket on the trailer. The cable appears to disappear into the chassis member that connects to the tow ring. But the pic also shows a clip, rather like the rifle holder clips in the cab, which holds the connector which plugs into the socket on the truck. The one I photographed a few years ago has one of those too, though fitted on the other side. I conclude there is no socket on the trailer, but the cable is permanently attached to the trailer wiring, and when under tow, the connector is unclipped from its holder and plugged into the truck socket.

My model will assume that anyway! Many thanks to all those who have posted such useful photos.

Chris

[Robert Sexton]

Hello all, attached is a pic of the 1 ton trailer with the female socket shown on the nearside draw bar. My trailer although a cargo body has the identical chassis.I am still uncertain if it had another use (cant think of one) it shows the threaded dummy to secure the cap (this was present on my trailer).
As can be seen the construction is quite different from the 1/2 ton although some of the components are the same.
Chris, the number plate holder and the convoy light are reasonably visible on the RH mudguard.
Robert

[Robert Sexton]

Sorry Illiterate computer operater at this end, Pic now loaded,
Robert.

[chrisgrove]

Yes. Nice pic Robert. But the pics on the other thread to which I referred - though a later updated version with the out riggers - do not show a cable socket like your pic. I am well aware that the trailers (well, mainly 3/4 ton) in my day had separate cables that connected to sockets on both the truck and the trailer, but I think the venerable 1 ton trailer had so many different lighting fits that all of us are probably right! Certainly a number of them had folding props at front and rear to keep the trailer horizontal when disconnected from the truck, as well as the jockey wheel at the front, but again, some of them didn't.
Chris

[Robert Sexton]

Chris, it certainly confusing now so I wonder what it was like then for a driver to pick up a trailer with different lighting leads! Am I correct in thinking that in some models they did have a lead with two male ends to connect the trailer socket to the towing vehicle socket.
It looks like (from my parts book) that the trailers meant to be stationery and level ,water tanker,generator etc ,all had props fore and aft. The cargo body looks like only having the jockey wheel.
thanks for your interest and help,
Robert

[chrisgrove]

Hi Robert
Certainly some (this includes trailers other than 1 ton) trailers had a loose cable with connectors at both ends. I would assume that the connectors at each end were the same, but, since I was very seldom the guy who connected the things up. I really have no idea whether the connectors were male or female. As long as the trailer came with a cable that could be connected to the truck, it would not really matter whether it was captive on the trailer, or needed to be plugged in to it!

I am sure I have seen cargo trailers with support legs at the rear, but they could have been specialised ones converted back to cargo.
Chris

[Richard Farrant]

Most of these trailers that I had dealing with were those with 10kva diesel generators mounted on a flat platform, or cargo versions adapted to mount two Onan 3.5kva gen sets. I am sure they had rear support legs and seem to recollect there were two at the rear that swung down on release of a pin and then unscrewed foot as required. Unless I am getting confused with another trailer type.

[Richard.Moys]

Hi
Done a bit of digging, some photos will help...

1) FV2401(Q) – 10KVA Single Phase Generator – note the angel of the tow hitch – [Source British Military Fighting Vehicles RARDE Chertsey Exhibition Catalogue 1962]

2) FV2401(R) – 10KVA Three Phase generator – note position of Warner Socket [Source British Military Fighting Vehicles RARDE Chertsey Exhibition Catalogue 1966] The addendum to the catalogue is a different photo as it says the wrong one was published see (3)

3) FV2401(R) – 10KVA Three Phase generator – No Warner Socket – just a coiled up cable

4) FV2401(A) – Trailer Cargo 1 Tone – No Warner Socket - now a NATO 12 Pin Socket with stowage


Also to note that the Warner Trailer Socket has 4 connections,
1) Ground
2) Side Light
3) Tail Light
4) (Generally No Connection)
So it is unlikely to supply power for anything

Cheers
Richard

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Richard.Moys

Hi
Done a bit of digging, some photos will help...

1) FV2401(Q) – 10KVA Single Phase Generator – note the angel of the tow hitch – [Source British Military Fighting Vehicles RARDE Chertsey Exhibition Catalogue 1962]

2) FV2401(R) – 10KVA Three Phase generator – note position of Warner Socket [Source British Military Fighting Vehicles RARDE Chertsey Exhibition Catalogue 1966] The addendum to the catalogue is a different photo as it says the wrong one was published see (3)

3) FV2401(R) – 10KVA Three Phase generator – No Warner Socket – just a coiled up cable

4) FV2401(A) – Trailer Cargo 1 Tone – No Warner Socket - now a NATO 12 Pin Socket with stowage

The second photo, genny with canvas sides, is a Morrison if I recall, with Perkins 3 cyl diesel
The third photo is a Petbow genny with same Perkins engine.
The front jack is as I recall, pull pin and leg swings down, I am certain the are two similar legs at rear of trailer.

cheers Richard

[Robert Sexton]

All very enlightening Richard,thanks.It looks like different methods of connecting the lighting system of the trailer to the towing vehicle was in fact used. I would guess that my trailer would have come to Australia with the Humber's in the early 1950's, it does not the side lights at the front that the later models had.I intend installing the Warner socket for appearances and will wire in parallel a modern seven wire lead for practical towing purposes.
It looks like the Sankey chassis/mudguards/towing ring remained unchanged for many years. I don't believe that my cargo trailer ever had the drop down legs,or at least there is not any evidence of them ever having been attached.
Even though the trailer is quite heavy it is reasonably easy to roll around on the jockey wheel as the center of gravity is only just forward of the axle
Robert