Those elusive green reflectors......

[Alex van de Wetering]

Awesome find Robert ....now hoping more will turn up. Or find a complete lamp or mirror at the thrift shop that has several of them fitted

it seems that the very early cab 11 made in 1940 may not have had them and appeared in the 1941 series and the subsequent cab 12 model into 1942.

"In March 1941,........................
(i) Green Reflectors were set in the Front Bumper.

That's interesting...My C8 does have the holes for the bumper jewels and also had the holes on the fenders for marker lights. My truck was built in the second half of 1940, so based on the info above this could mean the jewels were retrofitted.....which makes sence as the small holes in the top and bottom of the bumper are not in line and somewhat crudely drilled.

I also had a quick look on the Servicepub Factory Photo CD and it seems all Cab 12's have the holes in the bumper and the Cab 11's do not. Which does indeed confirm Bob and Rob's info.

Alex

[rob love]

Back in the day, when I restored my KL welding lorry, I picked up a pair of those green reflectors from Brian Asbury for the princely sum of about $20 each. To a guy with a baby and a mortgage living on the early 1990s frozen Corporal's salary, that was a princely sum. So you can imagine my horror when I noticed one day that that one of them had been smashed by a stone. By that point they had become a lot harder to find, but I did replace that reflector. After that, I was a lot more cautious but really, what could you do?

I think that if I were to do it over again, I would have canvas bumper end covers made up which would be removed once the truck made it to it's show.

[Ian McCallum]

I had to have a set of front and rear bumpers made during the restoration of my C11AS. This differed from the CDF in that it had the rear mounted spare wheel and from the limited photos available it was also curved like the front one in order to protect the rear wheel, I assume. From the original photo you can clearly see the holes in the rear bumper and I determined both front and rear were possibly identical. On making first the front one and offering it up to the bumper irons not only did it fit but was level with the extremity of the spare wheel, hence I made an identical one for the rear. You will see from the photo, plus several others I have, there only appears to be one towing/tie down ring, so again replicated this. I also took the opportunity to utilise the holes for a pair of flat red reflectors, available in the UK at most bike/car shops to provide the legal requirement.

Unfortunately I could not upload photos as I was getting information that a 'SECURITY TOKEN' was required?

[Bob Carriere]

Ian

If you send me $5 dollars per token I can can send you some spare one.

I would dearly love to see what you are talking about.

If you are short of cash just shrink you photos to less than 1.5 mb and they will get posted. Not sure what photo software you are using but I use ACDSee and it is very easy. Pays for itself in spare tokens!!!!!!!

If you are stuck re-sizing...... send them to my home address and will shrink them and post for you.

Cheers

[r.morrison]

Amen Mr Carriere....amen!

[r.morrison]

Dear David: I read your entry into the subject of the "green reflectors" and I am some what puzzled by you response. Almost a hatred for green jewels (jewellery) placed on a vehicle designed for war. My whole entry into this subject, was that it has been a "question" put forth by various qualified members of this forum over the years from all different countries. Numerous inquiries, including The Late Great "Salesman Bob" Mosely, posed this question a number of years ago, including other colours, as well as the green. Bob Carriere brought forth some great insight from the possible British stand point. AND again....the question is there.
As to whether they were used or not and on what models, has seemed to be brought forth very clearly by the insight of numerous members contributing to the question. To make a statement "from our position today", I take it you speak for all members of the forum or from a recognised "military think tank in Manitoba".
From a point of authenticity, I and a few other members would really like to know. To say that "they very likely never existed in the vehicle in the first place".....well, I find that a bit much of an assumption.
I have 2 original units that were screwed onto the rear of my 1944 HUP ZL, that and 2 tail lights which look like they came from a model "T". Based on the info provide here.....obviously wrong!
Now, I would clearly state to all members of this forum, that I am not anywhere near the CMP expert that a lot of the members are. However Mssrs Carriere and Love have brought forth some very very good and qualified info, as well as even more questions, queries and insight as to this area.
I personally don't care about whether they collected dust and dirt, whether they actually worked as for what they were designed . The information I look for is 1/Did they exist? 2/ What were their purpose? 3/ When did they bring them in and when did they phase them out? 4/ Do they look better on a Chandelier or a CMP bumper? (sorry couldn't help throwing that in)!

Anyway David, that's just my 2 cents on a simple on going question that has popped up over the years. Sorry if it has upset you.

Kind regards.....Robert

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by r.morrison

Went through this Forum to see if I could locate those damn little elusive green bumper reflectors for the early CMP's.

The originals are made of plastic. The ones I picked up are crystal and somewhat a darker green. They are about 3 cm larger in diameter...

Keep you posted......Robert

I do hope you mean they are 3mm larger, 3 cm would be quite apparent.

I also wonder if you could lighten the colour by removing the gold paint (should be easy to remove from glass), and repainting with a light aluminium paint, or even a gloss white? The prism facets of the glass should provide the reflectivity, and not rely on the metallic components of the painted backing.

[Ian McCallum]

OOPS! My fault did not shrink photos sufficiently, try again

[Ian McCallum]

Cant speak for all models but certainly C11AS/CDF models had them fitted. Couple of CDF's clearly sporting them, dust and all!

[r.morrison]

Hi Tony: You probably have something there. At this point, I really haven't got my head into the whole issue. However, your point is well taken on changing the "gold" colour. I know when we have to "back paint" sheets of glass to have the appropriate colour come out on the opposite side, the paint colour has to be altered to accommodate for the properties of glass reflection. I'll give that a try and post the results. Good point. Robert

[r.morrison]

Old age.....Tony: check my earlier photos and you will see the ever so slight "3mm" difference on the side view of the 2 pieces put together. Close enough for the girls we go with!.......Robert

[r.morrison]

Ian: Thanks for posting the photos and the clarification. Robert

[David Dunlop]

Hello Robert.

I believe you have misread the intent of my earlier post on this topic, but before I try and clarify what I was trying to say, let me first and foremost state I think it is great you have found a supply of these reflectors and I wish you every success in replicating this hard to find CMP item. To me, it ranks right up there with the GM Dashboard Jewel that was so hard to find for so many years and then finally got recreated.

I share exactly the same questions about these reflectors as you stated. It would be really nice to determine exactly when they came into use, why that happened, what subsequently came about to result in their being discontinued and when that actually happened. It does not help much that there are probably as many photos out there of all models of CMP’s with and without the front reflector bumpers. And for those CMP photos showing front reflector bumpers, it’s a crap shoot as to whether you can see a reflector mounted or just a big gaping hole.

We are now 70 years away from these mystery events. Trying to understand them is difficult. All we know for certain is the green reflectors came into being and then were discontinued. So what happened? I asked the questions about how they actually work as I haven’t a clue about that personally and if anyone out there does, please enlighten us. If one took a reflector equipped CMP into the dark of night and shone a light on the reflectors, how well do they actually work? Do they respond to a broad diffuse light or require a more concentrated stronger beam of light to activate. How much of a change in angle of the light source is required to activate them or stop them from working. And how well can their reflected light be seen by the driver sitting in an oncoming vehicle? If these kinds of tests confirmed these reflectors work brilliantly (no pun intended)., then we can probably rule out the notion they failed to operate as intended as the reason they were discontinued.

These reflectors are certainly mounted in a location on the vehicle where they could be easily fouled or damaged. Rob Love has already provided first hand experience to that problem, so perhaps that may have proved the reflectors downfall. Still nothing written in stone however,

When I mentioned that from the present perspective of us all living in the time we do, I was meaning we are all 70 years after the fact in regards to the production of the CMP’s. What we see on any given vehicle today is simply an endpoint. Just because a CMP we happen to own in the here and now is equipped with a front reflector bumper, does not automatically confirm that was the front bumper it always had, or that reflectors were ever fitted to it. Case in point.

In 1976 I bought a June 1944 built Chevrolet C15A Wire 5 Truck. I knew nothing about CMP’s at that time. It had a large hole on the front face of the front bumper, at each end. I simply assumed these two holes had something to do with tow ropes or as aids to pulling another vehicle out of the mud, or some such thing and thought nothing more about them. The following summer, Peter Ford passed through town and stopped by to see the CMP. It was he who told me the two holes were for green reflectors. I thought that was really cool and started looking for some. Eventually found a pair of NOS ones from Peter Simundson. When they arrived, I was puzzled as there was no apparent way of mounting them. The front bumper on my CMP lacked the two holes top and bottom needed to bolt the reflector bracket in place. The following year when the bumper was sandblasted, still no holes. I later discovered enough bits of information about this particular CMP to suggest it had been shipped overseas during the war and been returned to Canada at some point post war. It served out its days with a local Militia Signals Unit. My point is that in it’s current present day form, visible to all of us, the front bumper suggested reflectors should have been on it. Yet there was no way of mounting them. Also, I cannot absolutely confirm or deny when exactly that particular CMP came to own the front bumper that was on it when I found it in 1976. Was it factory original, replaced overseas from available NOS or scavenged stock, or replaced back in Canada from NOS or scavenged stock?

It would not surprise me in the least that in the ‘off, on and off again’ cycle of the existence of these green reflectors, front CMP bumpers were produced in great numbers covering all available situations as they unfolded. It would also not surprise me at all that these various versions of the front bumper got intermixed for a variety of reasons from the factories out through all the various supply depots and were used in the most expedient way as needed. So as collectors and restorers of these vehicles, standing here in the present looking at their current form, we need to be wary not everything we see is as it should be.

So good luck with the project at hand, Robert, a new supply of these reflectors is definitely needed and I am glad you are looking into it.

Cheers,


David

[r.morrison]

David: Firstly, I apologise if I read your post the wrong way. Unfortunately, for this reader, I responded to what I read and obviously by your latest entry, I was interpreting it in another way. Be that it may, I appreciate your insight, as well as the constructive and enlightening comments by all the other members world wide. For one of those little "things" relating to this subject....great response by all! Again thanks very much for your help and your response......Robert

PS: And the fact that Mr Carriere has 2 green ones and NOT red ones.....well I can tell you, I will sleep better knowing this. R

[David Dunlop]

Apology accepted, Robert, and I must try to improve what I am trying to say sometimes. It is often a challenge attempting to be informative and concise, or informative and so long winded, your reader either loses interest, or must combine reading one's post while eating dinner.

While I think of it as well, do you know if these reflectors came about solely within the realm of the evolution of the CMP, or was it already a preexisting feature on all, or some British military transport prior to the arrival of the CMP? If British use predated, maybe the answers for why they came into being hide in British military records somewhere.

David

[Harlé Sylvain]

Hello

If I understand That holes on the bumper are for the reflectors?

Cheers
Sylvain

[rob love]

Yes, those holes are. The large one is where the green reflector sits, and the small holes top and bottom are where the reflector brackets bolt into place.

Later trucks have smaller holes in the same place at the end of the bumbers. The purpose of them is not known to me. I have them on my HUP bumper.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by rob love

Later trucks have smaller holes in the same place at the end of the bumbers. The purpose of them is not known to me. I have them on my HUP bumper.

The smaller holes are a mystery, maybe for reducing the 'glow'? I have seen those green jewels with brackets with shorter mounting straps (5" vs. 6") which I assume were for HUPs. What the holes are probably not for is towing or rope/chain attachments. Holes that far out from the bumper mountings would bend the bumper before pulling the vehicle out of a hole.

[rob love]

I think that by the time HUPs were in production, the reflectors were pretty much out. Perhaps the shorter straps are for the C11as type bumpers as shown earlier in this thread.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by rob love

I think that by the time HUPs were in production, the reflectors were pretty much out. Perhaps the shorter straps are for the C11as type bumpers as shown earlier in this thread.

Early HUPs had them. Not sure for how long.

[Lynn Eades]

Betty appears to have one.

[r.morrison]

David: To be frank with you I have very little info on these reflectors and or colours. Maybe Ian could shed a little light on his vehicle with the Green AND the Red. I know I'm repeating myself, but some very interesting information and or queries have been put forth as well as questions bought up by the late great "Salesman Bob Mosely" and others. Even tonight, more info has been put forth which is quite enlightening. FOR MYSELF, when I saw these "prisms", I just knew that they would fill the gap, as any one can tell by the photos, until the real ones appeared on the market. I have $160.00 (8 prisms) plus invested and if can make them work to out fit 4 vehicles, well, we all turn out to be a winner.
Cheers.....Robert

[Ian McCallum]

I am only aware of green reflectors, fitted to front bumper only on the earlier CMP models. My use of red on the rear of the C11AS was purely to utilise the bumper holes to mount red reflectors so I complied with UK law of providing reflectors on the rear of the vehicle. By using the rubber tail light assemblies they did not contain the requirements and saved me having to fit out of character reflectors elsewhere.

[r.morrison]

Ian....Thanks for you insight into the matter. Smashing vehicle! God....I almost want to do a trade with you....jewels and all!!! Robert

[Grant Hopkins]

My 1941 Ford crash tender has all the holes for jewels on the ends. It is only 5" wide though, not 6" like my other CMP bumpers and the jewel reflectors I have.

[r.morrison]

Hey Grant: First give me a call when you get a second. Did you fall off the face of the earth??? The CMP Bumpers are 7 inches wide (high). The jewel holes are 2 inches in diameter and 2 inches in from the outside edge. The hole is centred at the 3 1/2 inch mark top to bottom. Measurements "thanks" to Phil Waterman. Are you looking to purchase or trade????? Robert