3 ton open cabbed 6x4 trucks

[Les Freathy]

Good on yer Bill a couple there i have not seen before, my word dosn,t Bart look young in that photo we all certianly miss his import into this hobby
Two shots of the Thornycroft Tartar WOF 3 ton GS, notice the breakdown gantry in the back that was bolted to the floor. Gantry recovery vehicles were about at this time under theRASC but there was always a shortage and to overcome some of these problems a number of GS types were converted utilizing civilian lifting frames

[Les Freathy]

Further to the Albion BY3 i posted earlier heres a better cose up shot of thetruck

[Les Freathy]

One more for tonight a 30cwt Morris Commercial CDF

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by cliff
found this one from the AWM in amongst photos of the North/South Road (Stuart Highway) in Northern Australia. It shows a British open can 6 wheeler passing road works.

Cliff,

On looking further at this photo, it looks like the Leyland gantry is pulling the trailer, a rope being visible. I think the dozer has been loaded on a truck or trailer and this trailer is being manouvered on to it as well. The "trailer" is obviously some kind of machine and it looks vaguelly reminisent of a machine used by the USAAF in England for laying rolls of asphalt or bitumen when building runways quickly. Knowing that there were lots of airfields up along the Stuart Highway, this could be an answer. Also the wheel looks like it is of US origin.

Richard

[Bill Murray]

OK, time for some Karriers.

First two should be CK6, a brekdown and a GS.

[Bill Murray]

Next

[Bill Murray]

Now, two that I cannot identify, but are from the Karrier archives

[Bill Murray]

A Karrier on test, model unknown to me.

[Bill Murray]

Last for now, a Leyland machinery vehicle.

Edit: This photo was taken in the Suez Canal area vintage 1953 and came from my old magazine collection. Still qualifies, I think.
Bill

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Now, two that I cannot identify, but are from the Karrier archives

Bill,

We have had this one before, think that David posted it. From memory, it may have been to a contract for India. It is fitted with a winch, so is possibly going to be a Breakdown gantry. Seem to remember something about a mixed contract for GS and Breakdowns ??

Go to thread "Mystery British WDS trucks", messages between myself and David, around May 2005

Richard

[Les Freathy]

Hi Bill
Your Karrier CK6 with frame is a bridging sliding bay and trestle, the rear view of the pre war model on test is another new one to me
well done
Les

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Just found this information buried in the 1937 War Department Mechanization Report:

Considerable development and research to obtain suitable new designs for Service vehicles had taken place and the introduction of 4-wheeled 4-wheel drive (i.e. 4x4) chassis showed particular promise. These vehicles with their improved suspension, good weight distribution, and large tyre equipment have put up good performances and therefore would appear to be the future replacements for 6-wheeled lorries.

The previous year the first Marmon-Herrington conversion had been trialled, and it looked as though by '37 and certainly '38 the classic 6x4 British WD lorry was outmoded...however by 1939 the principle was resuscitated as long bodies needed a 6-wheel chassis. Looking at the '53 Suez photo proves that some of the pre-war designs had a long service career. Interesting isn't it that the WD changed its mind back and forth? I suppose this may be attributable to whomever had a powerful voice in key positions each year?

[Bill Murray]

Hi David:

To tag into your last lines, did I not read somewhere that there was or was supposed to be some sort of subsidy scheme whereby the existing manufacturers were to continue production of existing civilian chassis that could also be suitable for military applications? I gather the civilian buyers would get some discount or some such to buy vehicles that did not 100% fit their needs but could be used for both purposes or something like that.

If so, it would lend weight to the argument of the proponents of the 6X4 design. The 4X4 generally speaking had only a military application and offered no economy of scale on the manufacturing side.

Just some random thoughts.
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Bill, I believe that you are right. Mr Kelly on his website comments:

A subsidy scheme was set up that encouraged UK vehicle builders to manufacture the design and make it available for civilian users , the idea being that in time of war the civilian owned vehicles would be quickly impressed into military service .

In fact the War Department patented bogie designs and then licensed manufacturers. The War Office had evidently designed [at the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich] and patented five designs of rear bogie:
(i) War department design of four-wheeled bogie for rigid six-wheeled vehicles, Patent No. 264, 548 dated 19 August 1925
(ii) Design of four-wheeled bogie for rigid six-wheeled vehicles, embodying a single spring suspension.
(iii) Design of four-wheeled bogie for rigid six-wheeled vehicles, Patent No. 259, 322, dated 14 July 1925.
(iv) Design of four-wheeled bogie for rigid six-wheeled vehicles, Patent No. 305, 793, dated 15 August 1928.
(v) Design of four-wheeled bogie for rigid six-wheeled vehicles, Patent No. 266, 272, dated 1 December 1925

Hope that's helpful!

[Bill Murray]

Thank you David:
It is nice to know that the memory is not completely gone yet.

Although my facts are apparently correct, the time frame is a bit off (mid 1920's patents) but knowing you Brits, you may have used the same patented designs well into the late 1930's.

They are, in any case, fascinating vehicles and I wish I had more time to get up to speed on the various makes etc. I seem to have enough problems with my American, German and French stuff.

I know I have more photos to scan and will try to get to it as soon as I can.
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

You might be interested to note that under the WD Specification Spec.36A there were various types of WD standards for vehicles that included 6-wheeler 30-cwt and 3-ton lorries. However in 1937 Spec.36B introduced for the first time the concept of 4 x 2 3-tonners, ostensibly for Egypt. This at a time when the 30-cwt 4 x 4 was going to replace the 30-cwt 6 x 4. However, what was not appreciated at the time was although the 4 x 4 chassis had distinct advantages over the 6-wheelers, the latter chassis was in the end required for longer bodies: breakdown, stores, pontoon, etc. This shows that the wind blew from one direction to the other in the WD Mechanization Board. Of course the 4 x 2 3-tonner were required in quantity but by late 1939 the advantages of 4 x 4 drive were evident with the Canadians initially calling for Marmon-Herrington conversions to suit. What actually resulted was of course history!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

you may have used the same patented designs well into the late 1930's.

Correct! Where did I get the information from? Copies of the 1936 Specifications that were referred to and studied at length by the Department of National Defence, Ottawa, from 1937 onwards. The Scammell bogie as used in the [Canadian] Ford-Scammell and Chevrolet-Scammell FATs as well as a [British] Dennis-Scammell and Bedford-Scammell FATs complied with the patents.

[Bill Murray]

A quick look through several threads did not show this one, so here it is. It is captioned a Morris and it is Googled from a British social thread of the area where Morris' were made.

I realize it has a hard cab but sort of fits our theme.
Bill

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
A quick look through several threads did not show this one, so here it is. It is captioned a Morris and it is Googled from a British social thread of the area where Morris' were made.

I realize it has a hard cab but sort of fits our theme.
Bill

Bill,

Although the wording on the building does look like Adderley Works, home of Morris Commercial Cars Ltd., the truck is almost certainly a Crossley IGL fitted with Gnuss air springs. Rear hubs are typical IGL as well. The RAF did use these, but how it comes to be at the Morris works, who knows.

Richard

[Bill Murray]

Richard, thank you!!

I am so glad I have you folks to rely on with these vehicles as I am really sort of clueless. Bit of a dirty trick on the part of the photographer, what??
Bill

[Les Freathy]

OK guys here is a couple of pre war 3 tonners , the bonneted Leyland Terrier and its stable mate the cab over Bull terrier
Les

[Les Freathy]

Bull Terrier

[Les Freathy]

sorry guys wrong photo second one is a Guy will find the Bull Terrier
Les

[Les Freathy]

The elusive Bull Terrier, well at least you got a extra shot

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

second one is a Guy

FBAX? Is the body a G/S or Pontoon?

[Les Freathy]

Hi David
It is the GS version, i have not seen a pontoon on the early Guy FBAX but if there is one it would be interesting to see
Les

[Pete Ashby]

Thought I'd share this with you, picture of my Retriever arriving at my workshop in 1991

[Pete Ashby]

this picture does not do justice to the amount of decay and corrosion taken about 1992, the only part of the cab that is saveable is the front scuttle

[Pete Ashby]

Complete engine rebuild, it had been badly frost damaged so the cylinder jacket required cold stitching, the bores were out of round and were reground, pistons had new ring grooves machined to take modern rings, the bearing were surprisingly good and were reused. The whole lump put back together and test run. The floor shakes when it ticks over at about 300 RPM. 1993.

[Pete Ashby]

There is now a gap of six years while I attended to the needs of a 12 cab C15A that just had to be done.

This picture makes me laugh, it shows the loneliness and sometime despair of a long term 'no parts available' restoration. Work has just started again on the Leyland Dec 1998