Project PHOENIX

[Colin]

Was browsing through a book on the Eastern front. One picture showed a German armoured halftrack with a multiple barreled rocket launcher on it. It looked like a typical German armoured halftrack, except it had Carden -lloyd tracks and suspension instead of the typical German suspension.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Colin
One picture showed a German armoured halftrack with a multiple barreled rocket launcher on it. It looked like a typical German armoured halftrack, except it had Carden -lloyd tracks and suspension instead of the typical German suspension.

See the picture of the Maultier in my earlier posting in this thread. The Maultier also came in an armoured variant, which had the Nebelwerfer fitted as you described.

[Wayne Henderson]

After discussions with another restorer type I relooked at this thread to try for a possible manufacture date/year.

Some observations;
The vehicle serial number should give up some idea of a year, 74150. Was it a C60?

Sure does look like a canvas bonnet but I think it is a shadow cast by the open windscreen.

Fuel tanks behind the cab, not the best spot but what the hey... it's only a prototype.

The bridging sign is painted over. There was also once something painted on the drivers door so this truck was used/issued before being converted to a C60XT

Overflow tank is a different colour, these were deleted after a time but maybe this truck needed one and it was refitted

Is that a number plate hanging off the towel rail?

If this vehicle went ahead into production what purpose would it serve (did I just answered my own question)? Towing (bogged Fords) perhaps or fitted for mortar. A bofor would look good on it but not needed.

Are there any more pictures of this vehicle or any articles written on its design function?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

There was of course also the Bedford QL half-track that was conceived and built in Luton ... using Bren bogie. There may just have been a prototype 'F60X' according to the Canadian records. This was a suggestion by Fords as an alternative to their Lincoln Zephyr-powered F60H. However there is no evidence yet that any were actually built.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I thought of doing an article on the CMP half-travk and comparing same with the Bedford QL version, plus the Bedford twin-engined AT. Do we know any more please about the conversion? Was it a Carrier system as was the QL,s?

[Rod Diery]

Originally posted by Keith Webb

This is the tracked truck in the film, although the pic was take at a different location (AWM pic)

Hi Keith, Here is a pic of the same tracked truck taken a few weeks ago at the Army Tank Museum, Puckapunyal

Cheers
Rod

[Wayne Henderson]

Another thing I noticed is the chassis is a 134". The bren carrier donor parts have been cut down to just over 8 feet. I measured a carrier up against a 101 (too short) and a 134. The carrier tracks are normally around 11 and a bit feet but this vehicle has been fitted with parts which brings it down to 8 feet and spot on for the 134. Look at the photos and you will see the space between the front idler and the first road wheel is only a hand span in width.
So does that make it a C30XT

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Also, there are engineering differences in track, sprocket and road wheels

Here's a nice picture of the bogie wheels & tracks on a Ford Maultier (source). Now, you tell me these are Universal Carrier parts...

[Wayne Henderson]

"Rollenwagen Spanken de Monkey" no doubt about that one Hanno!

I have since found a Ford "Jailbar" version of this half track, pic on the AWM site, with full bren tracks and a wood and steel tray. Also an article comparing several half tracks and the design process. It is on it's way to me David and I will send you a copy.

[cliff]

there are also pics of an International and Chev half track there as well

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Now, you tell me these are Universal Carrier parts...

Surely, (don't call Hanno Shirley please) these Rollenwagen Spanken de Monkey trackgeräte apparatenn are in fact Panzerkampfwagen I or II on a Carden-Lloyd suspension system and hence the apparent "connection" with the UC suspended the same way, but there the similarity ends.

(Hanno, did I ever tell you how to suck eggs?) :

R.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by FV623
(Hanno, did I ever tell you how to suck eggs?) :

No, please do. All I could find about the subject is this multiple choice question:

Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs means:
a. Do not make things too easy for others by taking away challenges.
b. Do not ask a person to do something that is unsafe or dangerous to them.
c. Do not try to teach someone who is older and more experienced than you.

H.

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
No, please do. All I could find about the subject is this multiple choice question:

Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs means:
a. Do not make things too easy for others by taking away challenges.
b. Do not ask a person to do something that is unsafe or dangerous to them.
c. Do not try to teach someone who is older and more experienced than you.

Errrrr, errrrrr, errrrrrr, ummmmm,: errrrrr, ummmm,: : ²

Ummmm;. . . . . . . . . . . . c?

R.

[Pete Ashby]

Richard

I think the Man from Holland has you bang to rights

Hanno you never fail to impress me with your command of the English vernacular

Pete

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
I think the Man from Holland has you bang to rights

I think you are, as ever, absolutely correct.

Hanno you never fail to impress me with your command of the English vernacular

And me neither.

Not as if basic English is easy for a non-native speaker; when liberally littered with our phrases, understatements, allegories and slang, it becomes an almost impossible task.

I don't know how your colloquial Dutch is Pete, but mine is so near to zero that you'd not measure the difference with a green light interferometer, or, <5.3-µm
For those of you working in old money, that's something less than 0.26866141711 of a thou.

R.

[Pete Ashby]

I don't know how your colloquial Dutch is Pete, but mine is so near to zero that you'd not measure the difference with a green light interferometer,

Stand by to be impressed old bean

Useful phrases while travelling abroad:

hoe heet u ? Bent u alleen? And ever the English man aboard.....

Dank u het was een heerlijke avond, never fails

Toodle Pip

Pete

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
Useful phrases while travelling abroad:

hoe heet u ? Bent u alleen? And ever the English man aboard.....

Dank u het was een heerlijke avond, never fails

I find "Heineken, tevreden. Dan stel uw beste meisje voor!" particularly interesting...

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
I find "Heineken, tevreden. Dan stel uw beste meisje voor!" particularly interesting...

Cor, strike a light guv.
Impressed I am.

You n' Pete are several parsecs* beyond me then in the Edam and Gouda speak.

R.
(* 1 parsec = 1.91737751531e+13 miles)

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Actually, I don't speak a word of the language other than "please", "thank you" and some phrase Mrs Hanno taught me in 2000, asking the locals either whether they spoke English, or whether they minded if I took their delightful, well-built blonde daughter for a weekend of debauchery (I'm not sure which - using the phrase usually resulted in stunned silence).

Online translators, as inaccurate as they inevitably are, have their uses in fooling most of the people, most of the time...

[Tony Smith]

The type of suspension used on the Vickers Light Tanks, Carriers and Maultier's was known as the Horstmann Slow Motion system. While the parts on a Maultier look similar to a Carrier, I doubt they are they the same, or even interchangable. Mr Horstmann (Who? Where from?) was no doubt flogging his patent in the '30s to anyone who was interested.

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Online translators, as inaccurate as they inevitably are, have their uses in fooling most of the people, most of the time...

As you well know, my other function is to act as Aunt Sally.
( That'll send them off around Google. )

R.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
Mr Horstmann (Who? Where from?) was no doubt flogging his patent in the '30s to anyone who was interested.

Tony,
Horstmann suspension was used in British main battle tanks in recent years, for an insight into the designer take a look at;
www.horstman.co.uk/history.htm

Richard

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Pete Ashby
hoe heet u ? Bent u alleen? And ever the English man aboard.....

Dank u het was een heerlijke avond, never fails

Pete, impressive indeed! Missed this when you posted it, I was on holiday then. Take care asking a woman Bent u alleen? as she might think you have some ideas not befitting the gentleman you are

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
of the Ford V3000S Maultier alone some 14,000 were built, with another 4,000 or so of the Opel Blitz variant.

Here's an interesting picture (taken in the Falaise Pocket near St. Lambert) of a rare Ford Maultier with Einheits wooden cab - these cabs aren't common in Normandie-era photos, and to see it on a Maultier is even more unusual. The still comes from Pathe film id 1986.01 - see Roncey Pocket - Pathe film to keep an eye out for.

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi all
Ever since I saw the images on Keefy's site (click on below) a couple of years ago I've had a hankering to build this. Well after the Peek-A-Boo recovery and another one I am currently doing I should have enough Carrier parts for the rear of the vehicle. There doesn't appear to be much Carrier there other than the wheels, bogies and tracks. What I need now is some information and build plans. Discussions with Keefy suggest the truck was a C-60L with the tracks driven from the Chevrolet differential as opposed to fitting the Carrier Ford one. What I also need, once configuration is confirmed, is the donor truck. Any offers? Who knows, with a bit of luck and assistance, next year is The Year of the Tracked Vehicle, and well it would be great to have this completed for that.

http://www.oldcmp.net/chev_halftrack.html

Message to Cliff - mate, mate, when you get back from your seminar how would you like to take on a commission to build this model. With your eye converting pictures to measurments it should be an interesting project.

Optimistic Bob

[cliff]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
Message to Cliff - mate, mate, when you get back from your seminar how would you like to take on a commission to build this model. With your eye converting pictures to measurments it should be an interesting project.

Bob my friend this is a model I have toyed with making for a long time. Either this CMP or one of the Ford or Chev MCP versions.

I have the hard to get parts which is enough CMP kit parts to do the cab and axles and if some one wants to 'donate' a Tamiya 1/35 scale carrier kit and a set of AM (After Market) tracks I am happy to build the model between other projects for nothing apart from the joy of doing another unusual vehicle. I also reserve the right to write and publish a build article on the model build.

One thing with the model is to decide whether to build it just with the concrete ballast in place or with a rear cargo bed as shown on the Ford & Chev MCP conversions.

Cheers
Cliff

PS> not long now and I'm off to Brisbane for the conference and I gotta admit I am starting to have a case of nerves as this will be my first big event since before I got ill 5 years ago.

[cliff]

I will scale off the photo to get an approximate size but does anyone know if the bogie setup was standard Carrier (in length) or was it stretched?

Cliff

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi Cliff
Thank you for your offer. I'll keep my eyes open for a Carrier Kit and tracks although someone may have one to "donate" as you stated. You can have any publishing rights or whatever you want with this.

With the track length, if it is a C60-L as Keefy believes, we have a truck wheelbase of 158". We need to measure the chassis length only and then fit the running gear to that. I did a rough count of the number of track links off one of the images and got to about 168, but given a full track is 176 links I probably would have missed a few, so let's go with 176 links. By the looks of it all the standard Carrier running gear was utilised but bolted into a fabricated base and not the rear lower Carrier compartment as I first thought.

With the rear, unless we can obtain other images showing something different, go with the concrete ballast as per the original images. I've contacted Mike at the AWM to see if they have any more information and I'll also contact Ian Pullen at Bandianna as they often have good historical holdings and are always ready to assist (aren't you?).

Ian if you are reading this, could you assist? I'll PM you anyway.

Any other input would be greatly appreciated.

Bob

[Les Freathy]

Cliff
I have o old tamiya kit of the carrier i started years ago and lost interest, i think you will only require the tracks and axles the body will be of no use. I can get them apart and post the said items on to you
chers
Les

[Wayne Henderson]

I also had a look at this particular hybrid and I personally think the truck was a C30.
In the Army History Unit Workshop was a C30 chassis (Ambulance) and parked next to it was a carrier. If you remove the distance from the carrier front idler wheel to the first road wheel, as shown in the test vehicle shots, the distance is correct.

This topic has come up before. The best of many versions was a Ford Jailbar type outfit that had the full carrier tracks and road wheels fitted.

Top speed for this vehicle would be 20 - 25 mph, about 10mph slower than a normal Chev

Please build it. Maybe you could fit twin handbrakes in the cab so you can turn it.