VICKERS MK6B's resto

[Lynn Eades]

As are the only two real British Bren Carriers, that survive, world wide. HMH 243 and HMH 244. Both in New Zealand since 1939.
Great work Colin. You are making a mark on history.

[colin jones]

Hi Lynn, yes you're right. Who owns the carriers over there and are in the same workshop. Have you any photos of them. They too are consecutive numbers also.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by colin jones

Hi Lynn, yes you're right. Who owns the carriers over there and are in the same workshop. Have you any photos of them. They too are consecutive numbers also.

One is in the NZ Army's museum in the Nth Island, the other is in private ownership in the Sth Island.

They have occaisionally been reunited over the years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gUa5TdHPCk

[Lynn Eades]

That's the top of my head in the gunners seat at the start of the clip.

[Lynn Eades]

Here is all three, HMH243, HMH244, and my NZ built NZR6
HMH243 has never been sand blasted and when Bruce repainted her, he followed the existing lines which close up you can still see.

We have digressed. Back to Wombat and Bowerbird.

[Russ Gregg]

The slide on the bottom of the tray is definitely original, and I think Colin will find that when the turret is rotated 90 degrees to the left the back edge of it will line up nicely with the edge of the hull so that it can be emptied on to the ground or for the more conscientious crew, into a container placed on the flat top of the left side fender. I would think the hinged front panel was a later addition when they found the casings would sometimes bounce out the front.
Brilliant work Colin.

[Dave lean]

Colin Alford's contribution , ref Tank Training Vol 2 part 3 No4 1936 states in para 2/1 that these hinged plates are "splash Plates" But only the poms would describe them as such? I suppose one could be splashed by spent casings, although the design looks like it would trap casings in the lower section just above the hinge, potentially limiting elevation. If these plates were to prevent mud etc from splashing into the works then the design seems in adequate just the same.
Colin Jones, you should have started on these tanks 50 years ago when there was a good chance of finding some old crew members that would know all this stuff.....

[tankbarrell]

Splash likely refers to bullet splash, the fluid like pieces of the bullet that find their way through the smallest of cracks when they hit the armour.

[David Dunlop]

Hello Colin.

Its interesting both tanks are sequential in their build. Were they by any chance recovered from the same location? That would make an amazing lifetime connection.

David

[Dave lean]

Hi Adrian, possibly but as they are rather thin sheet metal and limited in the area they would protect, I suspect they serve another purpose. Good to see members contributing ideas though. Guess we need an "Operators Hand Book"...) If anyone has a box full of them??

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Dave lean

Hi Adrian, possibly but as they are rather thin sheet metal and limited in the area they would protect, I suspect they serve another purpose. Good to see members contributing ideas though. Guess we need an "Operators Hand Book"...) If anyone has a box full of them??

I agree, 'bullet splash' is dealt with by thin, overlapping strips at the hatches and joints. I'm in on that box of operator's hand books (when you eventually find it) but have found that even those don't explain all the little details. The Fox has a 7/8" wrench chained to the upper right gun mantlet. No mention what it's for until I discovered it was there to tighten the gun 'travel lock'. Its secondary purpose is to shake loose from its clip and bounce off the back of the driver's head after hitting a bump.

[Richard Farrant]

Just found the description of the tray under the mantlet, here is full quote from the Light Tank manual;
"Trays, Cartridge Case
The No.8 tray is used with the No.10 M.G. mounting and is hopper shaped, bolted to the turret. A sliding shutter is provided at the bottom for emptying purposes. A hinged deflector at the front provides for the deflection of the cartridge cases into the tray at all elevations of the mounting"

It could be said that the deflector stops the empty cases from 'splashing' over the side of the tray!

regards, Richard

[colin jones]

Hi David, from the information I have, Bowerbird was found in a dump and had been buried for quite a long time. The story I heard was the person I bought it from was told there was a tank buried in a dump a long time ago and he then proceeded to dig around with a backhoe and eventually found it. it was in very poor condition and stripped out with no suspension but the hull was uncut as you can see by my earlier pictures. AS far as Wombat is concerned, I don't know its history but I will contact the previous owner and get some more history about how and exactly where he acquired them. I do know however, they were found in different locations so the sequential numbers is pure luck.

Russ, you are spot on there. When traversed 90 deg the tray does sit over the edge of the tank for ease of emptying

Here's a couple of pictures of the splash guard with a bullet in there. I would have thought they would have bolted it level with the top so they don't sit behind and put pressure on the plate when elevated. As I lifted the gun port it did jamb the casing above the hinge but I guess they never thought it would cause a problem.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by colin jones

Hi David, from the information I have, Bowerbird was found in a dump and had been buried for quite a long time. The story I heard was the person I bought it from was told there was a tank buried in a dump a long time ago and he then proceeded to dig around with a backhoe and eventually found it. it was in very poor condition and stripped out with no suspension but the hull was uncut as you can see by my earlier pictures. AS far as Wombat is concerned, I don't know its history but I will contact the previous owner and get some more history about how and exactly where he acquired them. I do know however, they were found in different locations so the sequential numbers is pure luck.

Russ, you are spot on there. When traversed 90 deg the tray does sit over the edge of the tank for ease of emptying

Here's a couple of pictures of the splash guard with a bullet in there. I would have thought they would have bolted it level with the top so they don't sit behind and put pressure on the plate when elevated. As I lifted the gun port it did jamb the casing above the hinge but I guess they never thought it would cause a problem.

Any chance that the forward sheet metal part is spring loaded? It is hinged...

[David Dunlop]

I don’t think that casing deflector needs to be spring loaded, Bruce. If I am seeing the design of it correctly, the bottom edge hinge is bolted to the leading face of the tray itself, and the upper narrow face is bolted to the forward lower lip of the gun barrel guard assembly. The combination of hinges thereby allow the entire deflector assembly to expand and contract rather like a bellows as the guns are raised and lowered.

The odd case may hang up behind the lower hinge from time to time, as Colin has demonstrated, but when one factors in that the vehicle will be bouncing about when in motion, and the guns frequently elevated and lowered, the entire deflector assembly is probably quite self cleaning.

David

[David Herbert]

Yes but they could easily have fitted the bottom hinge an inch higher so there was no possibility of a case being trapped. I assume that the folding 'splash guard' was thought of after the tray and retrofitted, they might not have wanted to have to cut away the front of the tray and weaken it a little but that would have been the best solution. Sorry to say but this is not a very well thought out design. Could it be that the splash guard on the Bovy one is incorrectly fitted ?

David

[Lynn Eades]

The No.10 M.G. is a 50 cal gun is it not?
Bigger shells, same result?

[Ryan]

This is such a great thread.
I love visiting it.

[colin jones]

Thanks Ryan.
I am progressing on my transmission components and need to get some new seals and a bearing. As soon as I get my parts together I will do the assembly.

Unfortunately I have come across a problem with the Meadows and instead of a possible long or worse hold up, I have decided to marry my trans with a Chev 216. As much as it is disappointing to me and no doubt a lot of other interested followers I think it is not all lost if the two are running and not to say that the Meadows could be fitted at a later date. The Meadows is 88HP where as the Chev is 85hp and I am also fortunate, that some time ago I bought a partly restored Chev Blitz with a close to restored engine. This has not been a light decision but I think necessary a one at this point in time. The reason I have chosen the Chev is they are both almost identical in length, height and HP and the Exhaust outlet is on the same side as the Meadows (thanks to Dave Lean for pointing it out to me) and also important is the similar age albeit a bit more later but still a military engine.
The problem with the Meadows is the cam followers are seized solid and are in two parts The bottom part can not come out unless the cam is taken out first and the cam won't come out without the followers moving up and down to let the cam come out. It has been sitting for a very long time and almost bonded as one and of course it is alloy and not very thick. The last thing I want to do at this stage is to destroy the block. I have tried numerous things to get them to move but not even one has budged. I think it is a project on its own and I am just looking at the big picture as they are getting so close to running.
The trans is good and all the gears, shafts, linkage etc, etc are excellent so the operation of Bower Bird will still be the same as it was back in 1936 so I am sorry to disappoint all Meadows engine fans.

I am still heading in the same direction but just on a different road.

[RichardT10829]

Colin, is it something you could continue with "Slow time" ? with a view to maybe fitting the Meadows one day ?

[David Dunlop]

Difficult decision, Colin, but it makes sense. The 216 is a far more available engine and would offer the ability to get both tanks running with matched power trains. You are then, as you mentioned, still able to revisit the Meadows with a lot less pressure, to see how best to bring it back to life.

Have you looked into ultrasonic cleaning to free up the seized cam? One usually thinks of the wee cabinets sitting on the counter in the jewellery shop used to clean Granny’s rings, but I do believe there are much larger industrial applications now available in the automotive and marine sectors that might be worth researching as time permits.

David

[colin jones]

Rich, yes it certainly be a slower project and it has to be saved.
David, it was a bit of a no brainer really. I haven't lost the Meadows, it's just on the shelf and the tanks will not be held up from running. Just the thought of breaking something in the engine from being in a hurry is scary Having the 216 will have no impact on the visual aspect of the tanks and probably not too much difference in the sound. (not that I have ever heard a Meadows).
I was very pleasantly surprised at the similarities of both engines in height and in length so I would assume that the stroke would be very similar as well. I will probably have to modify the sump on the 216 as I'm pretty sure it will be too deep so I will make a square (ish) type one to make sure I still get the volume of oil needed. Very similar to the Meadows sump.

[motto]

Colin
You are no doubt aware that the Chev 216 sump contains the oil distribution arrangement for lubricating the big ends. (Probably not a problem for a man with your capability so therefore not mentioned by you.)
Except for the fact that you already have an engine in your possession a better choice would be a post '54 235 cu in Chev with full pressure lubrication commonly referred to in Oz as the 'Blue Flame' engine. All the advantages of the 216 remain.

David

[Ryan]

Just a couple of random pics, unusual views. Top of turret and open engine covers.

[Ryan]

Destroyed Vickers tanks but showing open covers.

[colin jones]

Hi David, I was doing an inspection yesterday of another sump I have to determine if I have enough space to make a larger squat type reservoir under the oil system and I am pretty sure I do so the existing system will be able to remain. As far as a blue flame engine in concerned, as much as more HP would be nice, I don't think it is of major importance. As long as the specifications are as close to the original as I can get it and it works well, I will be a happy vegemite. I have inspected the clutch set up and know that I need to change the spigot/pilot bearing and either find a clutch plate with the correct spline centre, get one made or change the centre myself. Just as a general observation I don't foresee any big problems in marrying the two together.
I will post photos of my progress as usual and hopefully should not take too long. I still have to get some drive parts made that is way beyond my abilities.


Ryan, thanks for the photos. I feel for the poor buggers inside those tanks. Not much protection I'm afraid. There's a drive sprocket and hub in the bottom photo I would love to have.

[colin jones]

I am doing a dry run of the trans and final drive to make sure everything fits as it should, turns as it should and to get a final distance to the engine spigot/pilot bearing as I need to make an adapter plate between the trans and the bell housing.

[colin jones]

I am really happy that it fits great and every thing turns without hitting so the clearances are good. The brass speedo turns with the gears and the bevel gears mesh with little to no play.

[colin jones]

What a wonderful compact design these are. You have to hand it to the designers 80-90 years ago. As I am using the chev clutch and the Wilson gear box, I didn't think the clutch plate would be a perfect match as it's a different diameter and the spline centre also different but I was ever so lucky to find a brand new replacement and a replacement spigot as well.

[Big D]

Outstanding Colin!