Kangaroo Photos wanted

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
I believe Art Bell has a copy of the photo that was taken of all of RHQ in the same area as that of the one you posted of NCO's of RHQ, it has a single scout car on either flank if I remember correctly.

I have a copy of that, but my scanner went feet-up quite a while ago. To be precise, Art says it's TAC HQ, and both he and Mr. Miller Sr are pictured and identified. Bill, I think you have that one too, don't you?

[Bill Miller]

Mark & Geoff,

I now have all the Squadron photos; A, B & RHQ as well as the RHQ NCO photo and two Group photos of all the officers. I don't believe all the photos were taken the same day or by the same photographer as there is noticeable quality differences. B Squadron has the best and largest photo, a proper panoramic, all the men and officers being clearly identifiable. Also, it seems that the photographer Copley hired hung around and took small group and individual photos as I have seen many nice photos from B Squadron guys.

The "A" Squadron photo as posted is a lousy photo, the photographer is set too far back (probably because he did not have a proper panoramic camera, but a regular large format) the men are not clear, it was a very slow exposure as many men are blurred from movement. However, it does show quite spectacularly the building they stayed in!? I'd like to know if the building is still around? I have a small B Sqn shot that was taken with some young Dutch girls in front of the wall with the skinny horizontal windows seen at right in my posted photo.

Art Bell's RHQ photo is labeled June 11, 1945 but it had to be taken earlier as my Dad was SOS to the 14CAR on May 27th.

The officer photos I have were identified as Oldenburg, Germany. Which may be true or they may be more likely taken in Peheim around May 11th. They are taken out in a field and the surrounding landscape shows no buildings.

If anyone is interested I'll post more, but all the scans are at home. I only have a few misc. pictures to post here at work.

Bill

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Bill;

In regards to the "A" Sqn photo, I had meant to say "This may have been taken on Sunday, 20 May 1945 in Enschede, according to the "B" Sqn diary for May 1945, the diary entry reading:...".

Actually, there are no other references to Squadron photos recorded in the main 1 CACR War Diary or those of "A" or "B" Squadron through to disbandment.

You wrote: "If anyone is interested I'll post more", Yes Bill, please post.

Cheers

[Bill Miller]

I have a few more photos hanging around the office computer.

One of my favourites is this photo of Sgt. Rowland Marshall with a captured Kubelwagen. This is RHQ, Peheim, Germany circa mid-May 1945.

Bill.

[Bill Miller]

Attached photo detail of the front of two trucks (one an armoured truck), shows the "Bullshead" 79th Armd Div sign and 31 Tk. Diablo, the right Fender of the Armd Truck has an unusual "157" AoS. It is inside some sort of maple leaf shape?

[chrisgrove]

Originally Posted by Bill Miller

Attached photo detail of the front of two trucks (one an armoured truck), shows the "Bullshead" 79th Armd Div sign and 31 Tk. Diablo, the right Fender of the Armd Truck has an unusual "157" AoS. It is inside some sort of maple leaf shape?

157 is reported by Peter Hodges renowned book on markings as being 1 CACR. But I expect everyone knew that!

Chris

[Bill Miller]

Here is a RHQ jeep, unknown trooper. I like the improvised Hard top. Sorry no photos of the front showing the regt. markings.

Bill

[Mark W. Tonner]

Bill;

Great photos of the "B" vehicles of 1 CACR you just posted. In regards to your earlier post:

BU 3648
Ram Kangaroo personnel carriers of 4th Armoured Brigade in Rethem, 16 April 1945.



I have references (from several sources) that say that this photo was taken on 14 April and is of infantry of the 6th Royal Welch Fusiliers (158th Inf Bde/53rd (Welsh) Inf Div) aboard Kangaroos of 49 APCR, accompanied by Sherman tanks (two of which are in front of the third Kangaroo in the attached photo below) of the Royal Scots Greys (4th Armd Bde) drawn up in the centre of Rethem awaiting the order to cross the Aller.

Cheers

[Bill Miller]

Hi Mark,

I'll have some more info on the 49APCR in the coming weeks as I have their War Diaries coming over in a few weeks.

Seeing this shot with the Ram with the hull side doors makes me wonder if the British crews ever used those doors for any purpose? Do you suppose the doors were still functional on the kangaroos or would the workshops have welded them shut?

A lot of great new photos have surfaced lately at the various archives!

Bill.

[wim sikkelbein]

hello everybody,

Thanks for the info.
Mark, I wasn't able to make out the ct-number or the other text on the tank.
Bill I'll have to make a trip to Enschede to find that school if it's stil there.
I do have a question to ask:
Would the tank on this photo be a sherman kangaroo?

regards Wim

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Patton, IIRC. I don't have a copy so can't verify. If Mike Dorosh is here... Mike, what was the film you grabbed that capture from? Jeez, my brain is rotting...

It was PATTON.

[Bill Miller]

Hi Wim,

Your posted picture is very small but I don't think it is a Sherman Kangaroo. To my knowledge no Shermans were converted to an armoured "Carrier" role in the NWE theatre.

This tank (and I had a hard time making it out as a Sherman!) has a lot of stuff on it, it is most likely an armoured recovery vehicle? But then, almost anybody else on this forum is better with military vehicle identification than I am .

Bill.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by wim sikkelbein
Would the tank on this photo be a sherman kangaroo?

Hi Wim;

I agree with Bill, the second vehicle looks to be a Sherman ARV (armoured recovery vehicle).

Originally posted by Bill Miller
To my knowledge no Shermans were converted to an armoured "Carrier" role in the NWE theatre.

Hi Bill;

Your right, no Shermans were converted to armoured personnel carriers in NWE, only in the Italian theatre.

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

My, my, I've been away for a few days and looks what has happened here - excellent stuff, gentlemen!

Originally posted by Bill Miller
I have a few more photos hanging around the office computer.

See CMP 15-cwt identification for another one of Bill's photos, showing an Ford F15A 15-cwt truck at Peheim, Germany.

More later!
Hanno

[Roddy de Normann]

Bill -

Ref the '157' on a maple leaf...easy - 1st APC Regt/79 Armd Div. Maple leaf would have been Green/Blue. 49 APC Regt was '158'. Prob the regt was working alongside 31 Bde, hence co-loc of HQ soft skins ?

Roddy

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
The caption from the IWM is as follows:
The Advance on Hertogenbosh (sic) B11201
Troops (51st Highland Division was) committed to battle in this (the 12 Corps) atttack on Holland. The advance was in the general direction of Hertogenbosh. These pictures (11201-204) show infantry (of the 2nd Seaforth highlanders Bn.,) (152 Bde.) moving up and advancing in Kangaroos, old Ram tanks without a gun turret. Infantry travel to their objective on these kangaroos driven by Canadians on this occasion., the advance on Schijndel (sic).

Taken by Sgt. Norris. 24.10.44. RELEASED

Here's a better scan of B11204 - click on the picture for a large size version.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
Seeing this shot with the Ram with the hull side doors makes me wonder if the British crews ever used those doors for any purpose? Do you suppose the doors were still functional on the kangaroos or would the workshops have welded them shut?

Hi Bill;

I have found nothing to suggest that these doors would have been welded shut. I would believe that they would have been left functional.

Cheers

[Bill Miller]

Hi Mark,

I agree, I can't see why the doors wouldn't have been left functioning. Not much use on a "convertible" however!

However, if the Brit crews were as inventive as our own guys they might have found a use for them? I have not come across any anecdotes though.

In my recent document reading I can see that in August of '44 the orders were given to create 100 Ram personnel carriers and 56 Ammunition Carriers. The original specs for the Ammn Carriers were to have "doors" cut in the sides of the hulls. As this was not deemed practical they opted for a covered turret aperature with a square hatch. All the Ammn carriers in the intial order were built from later model Rams with no doors (CT numbers range between 159507-159905)...?

I think it is odd that if you want a carrier with doors in the side you wouldn't at least think about starting with a hull that had doors already built in? Though I can recognize that that pre-existing doors in the early Ram hulls were probably too small to be useful. for the passage and stowage of ammo boxes. Also, I see a mention in that the batteries would be moved up to the sponsons from the floor making side door access difficult.

Bill

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
In my recent document reading.....

Hi Bill;

Is this what you've been reading:

30-10-3/CAC
Main HQ First Cdn Army
31 Jul 44
MEMORANDUM TO SD
Provision of Armd Amn Carrier

or

1/Veh Armd Amn/1 (SD(E))
MEMORANDUM
10 Aug 44
SD, First Cdn Army
LAYOUT SKETCH
VEH ARMD AMN

Cheers

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
I think it is odd that if you want a carrier with doors in the side you wouldn't at least think about starting with a hull that had doors already built in? Though I can recognize that that pre-existing doors in the early Ram hulls were probably too small to be useful. for the passage and stowage of ammo boxes. Also, I see a mention in that the batteries would be moved up to the sponsons from the floor making side door access difficult.

It is equally possible that the Canadian Army didn't have any of te early models available. With the exception of those in Canada and those at the CRU, most of these early models had already been handed off to the Brits.

[Bill Miller]

Hi Mark,

I have both files you mentioned. Though when I recieved hardcopy of:
1/Veh Armd Amn/1 (SD(E))
MEMORANDUM
10 Aug 44
SD, First Cdn Army
LAYOUT SKETCH

There was no sketch attached, though it is mentioned several times in related file documents.


Clive:
I had forgotten about the intial allotment of Rams to the British in July.
I made a count in the document:
13/AFV Ram/1/16: Memorandum to DDME: 3 Jul 44

241 Rams of the 39000-40000 series and 204 of the 159000 series. The earliest # was CT 39832 and the latest model was CT 159895.

This was a fair chunk of the early Mk.II's but some would still available.

Later memorandum, between October 1944 and January 1945, I have indicates a further 330 Rams to be sold to the British. However I cannot find confirmation of the shipment or a list of actual tanks (CT#'s) these memo also mention that some of these 330 Rams converted to Kangaroos would be given to 15 Army Group in Italy. That did not happen, so did the British army receive the additional 330 Rams before the end of the war?

Interesting related memos: In the files concerning the Badger flame throwers I found memos from Dec'44 and Jan'45 about the cannibalizing of early Rams at the CRU's for their auxillary turrets. Those turrets (47 in all, I think) were then used as hatches in the armouerd plate covering the turret rings on the Badgers. There is a rather famous photo of a Badger that quite clearly shows the auxillary turret/hatch. The amputee Rams at the CRU's were to have a tarp replace the missing aux. turret!

Bill.

[Al Nickolson]

Hi,

I took this photo last month at Bovington.

Al

[servicepub (RIP)]

Here is a photo of an early Badger. This example was put together by 1st Canadian Base Workshop.

http://www.servicepub.com/images/cl-5-49.jpg

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Bill Miller
Hi Mark,

I have both files you mentioned. Though when I recieved hardcopy of:
1/Veh Armd Amn/1 (SD(E))
MEMORANDUM
10 Aug 44
SD, First Cdn Army
LAYOUT SKETCH

There was no sketch attached, though it is mentioned several times in related file documents.

Hi Bill;

I never received the sketch either

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Miller

1/Veh Armd Amn/1 (SD(E))
MEMORANDUM
10 Aug 44
SD, First Cdn Army
LAYOUT SKETCH

There was no sketch attached, though it is mentioned several times in related file documents.

Bill.

Mark, Bill,

If you send me the Archives reference number (RG 24, Vol. ????) I will pull it and take a look.

[Roddy de Normann]

Cor Blimey - just can not keep up !

In addition ref Kangaroos...

I have been sorting out the mass of paper that always seems to clutter the place. This morning I stumbled on a letter that was sent to me back in June 1996. This was from a former soldier of the 2nd Ox & Bucks LI, fighting through Holland:

'...we were travelling in Kangaroos in the advance on Winterswijk in Holland on Good Friday (30/3/44). We were in 12 Kangaroos when we came up against 'fallschirmjaeger' of the 7th Fsj Division at 'Het Woold', about 5 kms from Winterswijk. As this was a somewhat new squadron of Kangaroos, they pulled up in a straight row on a road with a deep ditch on both sides. Instead of leaving room for manoeuvering, they parked nose to tail.

'A solitary German 'Sturmgesutz' commanded by one Leutnant Heinz Deutsch, holder of the 'Ritterkreuz', commenced to shoot up the Kangaroos as if it were a turkey shoot. From a total of 12 Kangaroos and two tanks, he hit one tank and eight Kangaroos. We suffered about 14 dead and and nearly 20 wounded. The dead are buried an the cemetary at Winterswijk, along with one member of the RAC who was killed at the same time and one member of the HLI who was killed the next day when we entered Winterswijk.

'I personally met with Lt Heinz Deutsh for the first time at his home in Kelkheim, near Frankfurt in 1990. We became very good friends but sadly he died last October [Oct 95] after a long illness. He was also part of the 7th Fsj Div, "Sturmgeschutzebrigade 12". This division was only formed in the Autumn 44, under the command of the Generalleutnant Erdmann, who after the war killed himself in a British POW Camp. Between the Maas and the Rhine, Heinz Deutsch destroyed 35 Allied armoured vehicles...'

If I recall correctly, has there not been a past thread on this action ?

Roddy

[ Moderator's note: message split from thread RamTank.ca and merged into this one. ]

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Roddy1011

I have been sorting out the mass of paper that always seems to clutter the place. This morning I stumbled on a letter that was sent to me back in June 1996. This was from a former soldier of the 2nd Ox & Bucks LI, fighting through Holland:

'...we were travelling in Kangaroos in the advance on Winterswijk in Holland on Good Friday (30/3/44). We were in 12 Kangaroos when we came up against 'fallschirmjaeger' of the 7th Fsj Division at 'Het Woold', about 5 kms from Winterswijk. As this was a somewhat new squadron of Kangaroos, they pulled up in a straight row on a road with a deep ditch on both sides. Instead of leaving room for manoeuvering, they parked nose to tail.

'A solitary German 'Sturmgesutz' commanded by one Leutnant Heinz Deutsch, holder of the 'Ritterkreuz', commenced to shoot up the Kangaroos as if it were a turkey shoot. From a total of 12 Kangaroos and two tanks, he hit one tank and eight Kangaroos. We suffered about 14 dead and and nearly 20 wounded. The dead are buried an the cemetary at Winterswijk, along with one member of the RAC who was killed at the same time and one member of the HLI who was killed the next day when we entered Winterswijk.

'I personally met with Lt Heinz Deutsh for the first time at his home in Kelkheim, near Frankfurt in 1990. We became very good friends but sadly he died last October [Oct 95] after a long illness. He was also part of the 7th Fsj Div, "Sturmgeschutzebrigade 12". This division was only formed in the Autumn 44, under the command of the Generalleutnant Erdmann, who after the war killed himself in a British POW Camp. Between the Maas and the Rhine, Heinz Deutsch destroyed 35 Allied armoured vehicles...'

Still from colorized video on youtube, shot at 't Woold.

"Liberation Route East Holland in full-color - April 1945"
https://youtu.be/zgiqBwVWcKk

Note the name "TARANTULA"

Capture Kangaroo Tarantula.JPG

H.

[Dave Block]

DND archives PA-175529 captioned as British 49th APC Regt. in Kranenberg Germany, Feb.9, 1945

Cheers, Dave

[Hanno Spoelstra]

CT40220?

From Dennis' collection:

[dennis trowbridge]

hanno.
photos of bovingtons kangaroo [click on photo]
dennis