Scout T5329

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Tony, those carriers are firstly Universal carriers and the later ones are Australian LP1s.

Yes I was jumping to conclusions about the gun mount. Close inspection shows they're not drilled for the Scout type mount. This would seem to contradict Ben's earlier suggestion that "the only brackets to fit the Boys in a Universal are for stowage or transport, they're saddle type brackets or rests rather than a gun mount." These Australian carrier gun mounts look fully operational to me.

Also of interest is the curved metal strap attached to the hull on some of these Boys equipped carriers, including the experimental roofed version. Presumably it's designed to limit downward travel so the barrel doesn't strike the hull over rough terrain. Instead the monopod would strike the metal strap, even when traversed.

All very interesting but still doesn't shed light on the Scout mount!

[Ben]

That's not a piece of metal it's a strap. The universal doesn't have a gun mount it has a rest and a strap.

I can't comment on LP carriers. I should've been clear in that my comments were for the British and Canadian types and not the LP family, I've had no experience with LP carriers but I think their construction and fit out probably makes them very close relations rather than siblings.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ben

That's not a piece of metal it's a strap.

Aha! I was wondering why they were different lengths and colour! Thanks for the correction.

[Ben]

Following on from David's suggestion I contacted the royal armouries museum.

They sent a list of drawings that were possibilities, there were three which sounded good so i bought copies. The one below seems to be the accepted design, its not quite complete as there must be a sleeve or adaptor that fits the square end and acts like a lock.

The design calls for the gun frame to be modified and the bracket bolted onto the frame. I think between us we came to a similar conclusion to what the drawing shows, an interesting question has been answered I think. Hopefully the drawing for the sleeve will turn up in the achieves, knowing British design it'll be one of hundreds of drawings all called "sleeve", no mention of what its for.

looking at the drawing I suspect it was some sort of forging, post machined to fit the gun and mount. There's enough detail and information to allow me to make an adaptor to fit the mount.

Ben

[David Dunlop]

Brilliant find, Ben!

I must admit I am a bit surprised at the level of engineering for the right side of the adapter. I was expecting a simple square post.

My eyes are not the best, but if you look at the photo in Post 207 closely, I think the right hand wing nut assembly can be seen, particularly the base of the screw assembly where it pivots. What I am not sure of is whether or not to the outside of this wing nut assembly there is a large round fixture. If there is, could this be the missing sleeve? This sleeve would have the square fixture built into it and perhaps some form of floating central core that threads onto the right side of the adapter. If I am reading the drawing correctly, it appears that the right side of the adapter is drilled at the very end, as if a cotter pin could be inserted to keep something captive. The sleeve?

At least we now have an idea of what the adapter looks like. One more thing to look for in the 'Odds and Sods' bin at the local surplus shop.

The other thing that pops to mind is whether or not any Boys Rifles have survived today that have their frames drilled for this adapter?

David

[Tony Smith]

The resolution of the drawing is not clear enough to make it out, but does this detail show something called a "Square Plate"? It seems to show dimensions, does this match the square hole in the bracket? And the Square Plate is offset from the c/l of the round pin, are the square and round holes in the bracket in line, or are they also offset?

A good mystery, keep it coming!

[Ben]

The square hole in the mount is bigger than the pivot pin and the square in the adaptor. This is why I understand that there must be a collar that fills the mount square and locks to clamp or engage with the square in the adaptor. Looking at the earlier photo this could include a knob or lever, perhaps a spring that uses the square to lock. I assume it would be locked whilst traveling and unlocked to fire.

Ben

[ajmac]

That's a great find from the archives but I still think that something is missing. With the part shown the gun would be fixed firing forward, that can't be the case. Perhaps I am missing something.

[charlie fitton]

It pivots near the mount...have a gawk at the first images..

[David Dunlop]

Alastair.

The key is in the sleeve I think. It very likely locks the Boys Rifle into a secure travel position. From there it would move to an unlocked position allowing the Boys to be elevated for aiming purposes. It's final movement would be to back off enough from the mount assembly to allow the Boys to be removed entirely from the mount in the Scout Carrier and taken afield.

It would not surprise me at all if the Boys had little, or no, traverse capability in the unlocked firing mode. The German Hetzer self propelled artillery vehicles had minimal traverse ability. If significant traverse of the gun was necessary, the driver adjusted the position of the vehicle in coordination with the gunner to bring the main gun to bear on the target. A similar process would work with the driver and gunner in the Scout. Should the crew of the Scout encounter a target, I suspect it would likely be under circumstances where the engine is running and you have options if the situation gets too dynamic, so giving your carrier a bit of a wiggle would be no big deal.

David

[Lynn Eades]

Alistair and David, as Charlie says, have a look at the 1st photo in post #164.
You can see the built in stop that is an integral part of the mount assembly. My guess is that the boys has about a 30 to 35 degree field of fire, without the carrier having to move.

[David Dunlop]

Told you my eyes were crap, Lynn!

There is a central, cylindrical piece to the lower casting of the mount that bolts to the face of the carrier. Looks like it supports a pin/bolt assembly from the upper section of the mount. Cottered and flat washered at the very bottom. The entire upper section would pivot side to side until the beveled corners stopped any further movement. The last photo of that group shows the cylinder casting perfectly.

Ben mentioned earlier there is a rubber u-shaped pad bolted to the back of the mount that the Boys rests on when not in use. I can see the sleeve perhaps being used to lock the rifle from any elevation movement while the carrier is travelling, but from what is visible of the mount, would it not still swing in traverse unless something else secured it?

David

[kevin powles]

Nice find on the original drawing, now you have to find someone brave enough to drill 4 holes in there boys rifle frame !, eekkk!, I have two ground dug reasonable frames here, another I just sold to Nigel Watson.

Kev.

[ajmac]

Originally Posted by charlie fitton

It pivots near the mount...have a gawk at the first images..

I just looked back as you said and yes, I missed that, I understand it now. The sprung mount is connected to the bracket that attaches to the armour via a vertical shaft, thus the sprung mount can rotate.