Ford/Marmon-Herrington MGT's

[nuyt]

Bill, they left in 1950, when they delivered all material to the INdonesian Army, such as these Fords (picture Armentarium, mag of Dutch Army Museum), that look a lot like Amsterdam built F5's...

[nuyt]

but are not:

1949 Amsterdam built Ford F5 4x2 (250 built for Dutch military)
Picture from: Nederlandse militaire voertuigen, Van Popta & Schulten 1978 Van Holkema & Warendorf

[nuyt]

low quality pic of 1947 Dutch transport (AAT) company in Indonesia.
Note the different truck types used simultaneously for lack of (standardised) equipment.
Due to the political situation (US and Australia and others would of course not supply military stuff to a country that was violently repressing an independence movement) the Dutch bought civilian trucks and jeeps, often in non-mil colours to avoid embargoes.

On the picture, some Chevy's, a Ford/MH and then CMP's (pic can be found in J Boer, Koninklijke Olie in Indie).

That's enough for t'day...
Nuyt

[Bill Murray]

Hanno:

My bad, 48-52 is the year range for the first post war body change.
Nuyt: It is a little hard to say but 1947 would be my guess.
Problem we have is that Ford and GM both had a habit of carrying on one or two year old sheet metal in some of their overseas assembly plants. In South America, it could go on for several years.
So many countries were either war damaged or just economically damaged after WWII that they would accept any automotive product just to get their economies going. Thus, usable tooling was often shipped out to smaller export markets and used up until it was done.

Both of you: Please keep these new photos coming........
I had almost given up hope that anything new would be available after the surge of the 1970s and 1980s flood of books on the subject of WWII and earlier vehicles whether they be soft skin or armour. I got most all of those and thought it was over as there was a complete void for almost 20 years.

Now, comes the Internet and for me it is both heaven and hell.
I keep having to drop my photo file to a CD as I get red flashing lights and ding ding bells from my capacity monitor and my bookmark files are so large it takes me a half an hour to scroll through them, always checking for the latest photo or bit of info.

I have purchased a new scanner and hope it will work to start passing on some of the stuff I have. I will post another topic starter on how I organized/misorganized my filing system starting some 38 years ago so you will see how it is that I am so slow to post pics. Well, as Hanno knows so well from our PMs, I am pretty dumb when it comes to doing anything with the Internet other than look, but I will, I will, I will learn.
Bill

[Robert Stafford]

In the last spate of pictures, and notwithstanding Bill's comment that Ford overseas operations sometimes used obsolete tooling, I offer the following IDs in styling terms, whenever the trucks were actually built:

Hanno's first pic shows 48-52 style sheetmetal, NOT earlier;

Hanno's 2nd pic shows 42-47 styling;

Eric's following pic is 42-47 and looks very like a 6x4, not 6x6 because the front end is too for FWD and the front hubs don't show the telltalke M-H cast iron script hubcaps;

Eric's 2nd pic shows 48-52 styling.

[Bill Murray]

Well Robert!!!

I agree with all of your observations.
The only off ID was the Ford "MH" 6x6 which is pretty obviously a 6x4 and may even be a 6x2 if you look real carefully.

Don't want to start a "throw it against the wall and see if it sticks" thread, but in the postwar period especially in the Far East, a lot of trucks of fairly high capacity were fitted with a trailing non driven second rear axle just to give even more capacity. Nuyt's pic is a little hard to define exactly, but it does almost appear that the last set of wheels may well be singles and inset from the first set.
Bill

[nuyt]

Hi Hanno, Robert, Bill,
thanks for those id's.
here is another pic of a six-wheeler, in Medan, Sumatra late forties (from Meijer, De Deli Spoorweg Maatschappij).
I like the way the rear wheels are hanging there...
So what is this? A Ford or Ford/MH?

HTH
Nuyt

[nuyt]

Here another pic of a Dutch forces Ford in Indonesia, late forties.
From Groen/Staat, Inzet in Nederlands Indie.
HTH
Nuyt

[Robert Stafford]

Nuyt,

Of your two new Ford photos, the first is a conventional 2WD, not M-H; again, too low in front and no telltale M-H hubcaps.

The front truck in the 2nd photo might be M-H because it sits pretty high, but the photo isn't clear enough to tell.

Robert

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Bill, Robert, Nuyt, thanks for the pictures and comments - I agree with all observations.

Here's another picture of a convoy of trucks on their way to Kediri, Java, dated 30 December 1948. I think they are Ford/Marmon-Herrington 3-ton 4x4 trucks, at least they have those distinctive 18" wheels - would those help in identifying if these trucks are of pre- or post-war manufacture? (picture source)

[Robert Stafford]

Hanno,
I agree that the trucks in your last photo are M-H because of:

- The 18" wheels, as you say
- M-H hubcaps in front
- transfer case visible on center truck
- front diff visible on at least two trucks.

I don't know if military use of the 18" wheels continued after the war, but don't see why not. My only experience of postwar M-H trucks is US civilian rigs, all examples of which I've seen (several dozen) use stock Ford 20" rims.

[nuyt]

great source of pics you found there Hanno.
On the last picture page there is even a Ford GP survivor from 1941. Did not manage to copy this picture...

greetings
Nuyt

[nuyt]

Here's another Ford or Ford/MH? in Semarang, Java 1947. Not sure if this is military or civilian tanker (?) truck (from the excellent Semarang-Beeld van een Stad, Asia Maior Pubs).

Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
great source of pics you found there Hanno.
On the last picture page there is even a Ford GP survivor from 1941. Did not manage to copy this picture...

Mr. Westerhof did a great job taking well over a thousand(!) snapshots during his stay in Indonesia, some great ones of vehicles. Here's the GP pic:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Here's another Ford or Ford/MH? in Semarang, Java 1947. Not sure if this is military or civilian tanker (?) truck

Nuyt, a 4x2 truck (note front axle beam, no differential), plain old civvy Ford if you ask me...

H.

[Bill Murray]

Morning Guys:

Just trying to play a little catch-up here, nothing really new.

These Dutch/MH threads are getting so long I have to print them off to keep things straight.

For starters and I am not trying to post over anyone else, I just had some time to look through some of my reference stuff.
Hanno's pic posted April 5 is a 42-47 4X4 presumably MH
Nuyt's of the same date is a 42-47 and is 6X4 (not 6X2 as I was speculating based on a later pic)
Nuyt's group shot also of the 5th would certainly seem to be a 4X4 MH as it stands much taller than the Chevs.
Nuyt's single Ford of the 5th is a 42-47 6X4.
Nuyt's of the 6th certainly looks like a 4X4 of 42-47.
Hanno's group shot are again 4X4 of the 42-47 vintage.

Now, a question for the gang. The 6X4 Fords are a little bit of a mystery to me. My assumption is they are standard Fords with most likely a Thornton tandem axle installation. I am not sure but I think MH did offer some 6X4 but not this late. Anyone have any thoughts? Another question, on the last several pics of postwar Fords whether 6X4 or 4X4 it is near impossible to figure out which side the steering wheel is on. To my eyes, the look like LHD rather than RHD.
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Bill, as Canadian Traction offered a M-H Ford chassis with M-H front and Thornton rear bogie, I assume that they also offered the rear-drive bogie only though HV Welles of Windsor also sold the Thornton bogies as agents for Thornton, Detroit.

[Bill Murray]

Well, David:

Another question is where were these post war Fords, and Chevs on the other thread, sourced from?
The Chevs look to be from Holland due to the cab design.
The Fords look straight North American except for the pics from Nuyt of the later trucks that are obviously Dutch also.

So, where did the 42=47 style trucks come from is the question and I am basing the question on the premise that the pics show true postwar year trucks, not left over WWII vehicles.

My best guess is Canada if it is so that the US would not sell military vehicles to Holland for use in the NEI area as mentioned by either you or Nuyt earlier. They could then, for example, be either RHD or LHD. A pin in this little balloon might be that most of that batch of pics from you, Hanno and Nuyt appear to be normal civvie street trucks (not the obvious MH pics of course) and I suppose could have been US sourced. In any case, the cabs and even the bodies are much more representative of typical North American trucks than Dutch ones.

Over to you.

Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I gather that the GM Java Plant was taken back in 1945, when all internees were released. It finally closed in 1955. The exports were probably from Bloomfield Boxing Plant or Tarrytown, New York rather than Oshawa, Onatrio, CKD, and sent direct.

[Bill Murray]

Thanks, David:

I am thinking of betting another case of beer that we are going to get to the bottom of this whole NEI vehicle story before year's end. A very interesting offshoot to the whole CMP story and certainly a vital part of it.

There are three areas I am going to concentrate on, South America, Iran and Eastern Europe (Romania for example) where other variants of the MH vehicle were used and which are rather intertwined with the whole CMP story.

BTW, have not gotten the models from Canada yet and am very anxiously awaiting news on your book.

Let's hear from you.
Bill

[nuyt]

Just back from a week's holiday touring the low countries...

Made myself usefull for military vehicle history now and then, though...

Found some years of Dutch Military Spectator issues (1947-49) that had a couple of stories on transport in the Indonesian Indep. War that was still raging.
Here's an executive summary for you all (no pics):

-Some Dutch Army transport companies in 1946 took over vehicles from the Royal INDIAN Army Service Corps: no concrete info, but probably CMP's and Dodges;

-One company received "almost new" vehicles from Holland in mid 1946: including one platoon with Chevrolet 2 1/2 ton tippers (which the men duly exchanged for Dodges);

-There was an absolute lack of spare parts;

-By May 1947 some 57 3-tonners were "made available" by the Army techincal service (no details what this meant), while at the same time the transport branch received another 41 wrecks for spare parts cannibalism;

-By the end of 1947 the Transport Corps started receiving 120 "new" trucks, among which 83 AUSTRALIAN Ford Marmon Herringtons, to replace the ageing fleet of Dodges;

-The author (major Roetering, Chief Divisional transport officer) is proud of what has been achieved: with trucks that should have been classified as wrecks such and such number of goods and personnel has been moved.

In another publication I saw pictures of "Ford trucks" strikingly similar in model and appearance to the civvy 6x4 or 6x2 Fords shown above, EXCEPT they were 4x2 or 4x4.

So what we know for sure now is that the Dutch ordered and received Ford-MH trucks from Australia. Due to the political circumstances it is most likely these were sold as civilian vehicles and probably looked liked or were painted as civilian vehicles at the time of delivery.

The info above is only part of the story as it refers to just one Dutch division on (western) Java. I guess similar stories could be told about the other divisions and other islands. Possibly, the Ford/MH 4x4's on Hanno's pics are a similar Australain delivery to the division on Eastern Java?

HTH
Nuyt

[nuyt]

look through your looking glasses and check out these pictures and see:
-White Scout Car M3's
-6 wheeled armoured cars,
- US late 30's staff cars,
-GMC? artillery tractors,
etc

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...ry+vehicles+))

Enjoy
Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
-Some Dutch Army transport companies in 1946 took over vehicles from the Royal INDIAN Army Service Corps: no concrete info, but probably CMP's and Dodges;

Nuyt, very useful holiday you've had - thanks!

As for Indian Army vehicles, these included at least CMPs:
- The Dutch Marines used a number of Indian Pattern FATs.
- Recently, I found a picture of a CMP in Dutch service which looks a lot like another Indian Pattern CMP pictured in 1965(!)

Keep up the good work!

Hanno

[nuyt]

Here's another shot of a Dutch Kantinewagen in Indonesia late forties. It is sponsored by the Dutch municipalities that have their names written on the side of the truck, but where did the truck come from? Who had such trucks?

Nuyt

[nuyt]

this time donated by the citizens of Leeuwarden in Frisia.
Both pics from Inzet in NI, 1945-1950, by Groen en Staat

Nuyt

[nuyt]

Gentlemen,

On this site below (in Dutch unfortunately) one can read how the Dutch 43 transport company was ordered from Java to Dutch New Guinea (that was not yet going to be handed over to Indonesia) in late 1949.
They received 35 brandnew Marmon-Herrington 3-tonners to bring along.
So we have seen deliveries from 1947 (Australian Ford/MH's) and two years later there were still MH trucks coming in (still from Australia, civilian style trucks as I suggested?)

These must have ben substantial totals (hundreds) and it should be possible to find them in some old book! If all these trucks came from Australia, it should not be to difficult to track down numbers and exact types.

http://www.veteranen-online.nl/nieuwguinea/43aat.htm

HTH
Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I came across another on-line photo archive, De Beeldbank of the Dutch National Archives. Found some pictures of the Dutch "police actions" in Indonesia shortly after WW2. Shown below is a Ford truck (Fotonummer 3770). Will look for more interesting stuff later.
Nuyt, did you know about this archive?

H.

[nuyt]

Thanks Hanno, cool pic.

Yeah, I have visitied the site only once and found a picture of a KNIL Marmon-Herrington that had an extra machinegun position built in next to the driver.
Behind you can see a Braat overvalwagen.

HTH
Nuyt

[nuyt]

guys, what about this truck from the Dutch National Archives (forgot to note the number, darn)?
Is it what I think it is?

Nuyt

[nuyt]

are they what I think they are?
Australian sourced?
Note top-hinged windscreens, style of bodywork...
Nuyt