Armoured Carrier, Wheeled - Indian Pattern

[R Mark Davies]

Hi Gents,

I'm looking into the India Pattern Armoured Carriers (ACV-IP) used by the Indian & Commonwealth Forces. As I understand it, CMP chassis were sent to India, where they were fitted with armoured bodies in Indian workshops.

The Mk II and IIa are fairly well documented and these were basically a turretless armoured car - rather like a large Dingo, with Bren and Boys armament and a crew of three - mainly used as a Light Recce or Liaison Car, as well as an OP vehicle.

However, the Mk I seems to be very difficult to track down. From Indian cavalry organisations, it was clearly used as a light APC in lieu of the Universal Carrier in Recce Regiments. George Forty claims it was based on the experimental Guy Wheeled Carrier. He also states that the appearance varied depending on which workshop did the modifications.

I have a photo of the Guy Wheeled Carrier, but I can't find any photos or plans of the Mk I IP Carrier. Are the above comments correct? Was it basically a wheeled Universal-type troop/weapon carrier? Can anyone help?

Mark

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Mark,

The India Pattern Armoured Carriers are often referred to as "Carrier, Wheeled, 4x4 (Indian Pattern)" or "Armoured Carrier, Wheeled, Indian Pattern". Best source of info I know is Wheels & Tracks issue no.41; also check the following threads on the Old Forum:

• Carrier, Wheeled, 4x4 (Indian Pattern)
• Wheeled Armoured Carrier in Afghanistan

Hope this helps,
Hanno

[R Mark Davies]

Great pictures, Hanno! The Mk IV Carrier (the Afghan one) is interesting - it looks a lot like the original Guy Carrier.

Mark

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by R Mark Davies
The Mk IV Carrier (the Afghan one) is interesting - it looks a lot like the original Guy Carrier.

Mark, yes, it does, doesn't it

Here's a three-quarter rear view of the Guy Wheeled Carrier: http://ww2photo.mimerswell.com/tanks/gb/bil/guy/wc.htm

The Indian Pattern Wheeled Carrier is discussed in the thread "Revised 1942 S/M Contracts Listing" as well.

Cheers, Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

See some interestings film stills of Indian Pattern Armoured Wheelded Carriers in the thread "LRGD indian units (4 pics) strange vehicle help !" at the Allied WWII AFV Discussion Group.

http://imagen.britishpathe.com/scrip...00000134&sif=0

The stills come from film 1815.15 "INDIAN L.R.D.G. UNIT 1943" at the British Pathé site.

Regards,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
also check the following threads on the Old Forum:

• Carrier, Wheeled, 4x4 (Indian Pattern)
• Wheeled Armoured Carrier in Afghanistan

I've noticed some of the threads on the old forum have disappeared. The second one is gone already, so I'm copying the first one here before it gets lost as well:

Carrier, Wheeled, 4x4 (Indian Pattern)
April 13 2002 at 4:46 PM Hanno Spoelstra

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See the American Memory from the Library of Congress site for some fascinating wartime pictures. The search for "India Armoured Car" gave the following results:



http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/fsa/8b0500...0/8b05878r.jpg
"Combat car in India. A newly completed armored combat car going through a rigid final test somewhere in India. The armored plate is put on the chasis in India. Lend-lease materials and equipment play a vital part in the manufacture of these cars."


http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/fsa/8d4300...0/8d43560r.jpg
"United States "lend-lease" program in eastern India. An American "Do-All" machine saws armor plate for use in combat cars at an Indian factory. Lend-lease materials are essential in the manufacture of this super-tough steel."


http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/fsa/8d4300...0/8d43539r.jpg
"United States "lend-lease" program in eastern India. A newly completed combat car on the testing ground "somewhere in India." The armor plate is put on the chassis in India. Lend-lease materials and equipment play a vital part in the manufacture of these cars."


http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/fsa/8d4300...0/8d43574r.jpg
"United States "lend-lease" program in eastern India. An Indian workman, using an American welder which was supplied under lend-lease, welds an armor plate on a nearly completed combat car."

[Alex van de Wetering]

I came across this picture in the Dutch Army photo archive....no idea if it has been posted on the forum before, but better safe than sorry.

source: http://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/nl...d/pantserwagen

Dutch East Indies 1947.

Alex

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I came across this picture in the Dutch Army photo archive....no idea if it has been posted on the forum before, but better safe than sorry.

Alex,

It did ring a bell so I had a search for it. Found it in the thread armoured vehicle query, which has more pictures of these types of carrier in the NEI.

[Davistine Liddle]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

Some pics of a NZ built Carrier, Indian Pattern, Wheeled. 76 of these were built by the NZ Railways and Ford NZ on rear engined Ford CMP chassis, and closely follow the Indian design. This is the only restored example and may be one of only 3 survivors.
It is in the markings of the 16th Field Regiment during it's service in Korea, where these vehicles were used as OP's.

Hello Tony

Here i found related pics kindly check

http://www.scoopoftidbits.com/travel...y-tank-museum/


Different links of same museum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cvAqyHp5eo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnz-E02TSx8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pKhG24Qv2M

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Wheeled Armoured Carrier assembly line: "fit floor plate and floors" station (IWM IND 517)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I came across this picture in the Dutch Army photo archive....no idea if it has been posted on the forum before, but better safe than sorry.

source: http://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/nl...d/pantserwagen

Dutch East Indies 1947.

Here's another shot of the same type of wheeled carrier (may even be the same example). Recently unearthed by Keith Webb from the Netherlands National Archives:

Collection / Archive Fotocollectie Dienst voor Legercontacten Indonesië
Report / Series [DLC] Bezoek van professor Romme aan Medan
Description Dr. C.P.M. Romme (in licht overhemd) maakt tocht langs de "dodenweg" van Medan naar Belawan
Date 2 februari 1947
Location Indonesië, Medan, Nederlands-Indië, Sumatra
Person names Romme, C.P.M.
Photographer Fotograaf Onbekend / DLC
Copyright Holder Nationaal Archief, CC0
Physical Description Negatief (zwart/wit)
Catalog reference number 2.24.04.03
Inventory File Number 146-1-2

[Ed Storey]

My Father has owned this British booklet Our Men in Korea since 1955 and because of all the CMPs, this photograph has always been my favourite.

[chrisgrove]

Those Indian Pattern Wheeled Carriers from Korea are New Zealand LPOPs (not entirely sure what that stands for). Very similar to the wartime Indian ones but just slightly different. Driver hatch is nearer the centre of the vehicle for one.
Chris

[Andrew Rowe]

That picture is of New Zealand Wheeled Carriers in Korea, that were used as gun tractors for the 25pdr's. They did not find them that suitable as they were fairly wide for the dykes. They were fitted with a White Scout Car front roller before they were shipped to Korea, as this was not a Standard feature when they were manufactured in WW2, In New Zealand. 76 were manufactured in NZ during the War to full body status, even though 99 chassis's had been imported for the build program. The LPOP, stands for Local Pattern Observation Post.
It was modeled from the "Indian Pattern " wheeled Carrier with welding used to construct the bodies, where as the Indian ones were Riveted, Cheers Andrew.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Ed, great picture, thanks.

Chris, further to what Andrew wrote, I'd say LPOP stands for Local Pattern Observation Post. Many types of armoured vehicles were turned into OP's, e.g. Sherman and Ram tanks, but also Universal Carriers. In this case LP refers to the locally built version of the "Carrier, Wheeled, NZ Pattern Mk II"

Also see http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...137#post106137

[Lynn Eades]

Just a small note. "Carrier, Observation Post" was a contract specification, meaning that Carriers were built as armoured oberservation posts. The first of them preceeding the universal carrier. (there were 95 built based on a Scout carrier) None appear to have survived. Then there was the MkII based on a riveted U.C., as was the MkIIIw (welded hull).
Just posted for clarity.

[Andrew Rowe]

"Just Posted for Clarity" ? I thought we were talking about Wheeled Carriers and NOT "Bren " Carriers? Cheers .

[Lynn Eades]

Andrew, read Hanno's post above.

[Rob Beale]

The first vehicle just out of shot will be a FAT towing the second limber for each gun in the troop. The next vehicle after the AOP is another FAT towing a limber and gun, (and the third FAT in the troop will be ahead with the second gun and its limber).

Actually limbers are horse drawn, and these are Artillery Trailers No 27!

The convoy shows another AOP near the back and a couple of larger CMPs, likely 60cwt and a single C8AX with its spare wheel on the bumper.

NZ contributed a Field Regiment and a Transport Squadron.

163 Battery lost some of its guns when the Troopship Wahine ran aground and sank off Masela Island in the Arafura Sea north of Australia in 1951.

[Andrew Rowe]

There was a small number of the NZ Pattern Carriers on that ship that sank....lets go diving!

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Rob Beale

163 Battery lost some of its guns when the Troopship Wahine ran aground and sank off Masela Island in the Arafura Sea north of Australia in 1951.

Point of order, the Wahine never sank.

It ran ground on a reef and remained intact and above the high water mark for years, but could not be refloated. It was cut up for scrap by a Japanese salvage company in the 60's.

http://www.aukevisser.nl/others/id918.htm
https://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-emu

I wonder if the 25Pdrs and LPOP's re-appeared during Konfrontasi?

[Lynn Eades]

As you know Tony, we have / had more than one Wahine.

For those from elsewhere:
Wahine definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionarywww.collinsdictionary.com › dictionary › wahine
Wahine definition: (esp in the Pacific islands) a Polynesian or Māori woman, esp a girlfriend or wife.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

I wonder if the 25Pdrs and LPOP's re-appeared during Konfrontasi?

Good question! It seems the 25-pdr guns, less breech blocks, were left on the ship. I would not be surprised to learn the Indonesian army managed to get them off the ship and put them back into use during the battle for independence. Though looking at the location of the Masela Island, it may have been too far out of their way. In that case the Japanese salvage company found some nice heavy scrap on board...


From http://www.nzmaritime.co.nz/wahine1.htm (my bold):

Salvage attempts were unsuccessful and the vessel was abandoned as a total loss. However, as the vessel was carrying a number of 25 Pounder artillery guns for 16th Forward Regiment and in view of the unrest then prevailing in nearby Indonesia, steps were taken by the army to remove the breech blocks from the guns on board. Masters of company vessels passing through that area for many years thereafter reported Wahine was still "high and dry" on Masela Island.

From https://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-emu (my bold):

On 16 August 1951, the 4436 ton New Zealand troopship Wahine, carrying 575 troop reinforcements bound for Korea, grounded on a reef near Masela Island some 250 miles north of Darwin. A passing oil tanker, Stanvac Karachi, rescued the troops and crew, ferrying them safely to Darwin. Left behind, however, was a salvageable cargo, estimated to be worth somewhere between £20,000-£50,000, comprising military equipment and stores. A few hours after the grounding, Emu’s then captain, Lieutenant Commander John Toulouse, RANVR, flew over Wahine in an RAAF aircraft to assess the situation with a view to establishing whether the vessel might be pulled clear. He observed that almost half of Wahine’s length had passed over the reef, correctly concluding that the ship was lost. The following day Toulouse received orders to proceed to the stricken ship with instructions to recover what equipment he could. Emu’s crew subsequently removed all arms, ammunition, equipment and canteen stores along with 25 percent of the crew’s and troop’s baggage. As Emu left the scene, hundreds of Masela Islanders could be scene descending on the vessel. Following a return visit to the Wahine, Lieutenant Commander Toulouse reported the vessel as being in a desolate state having been systematically looted of all remaining cargo and fittings.

From https://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-ti...opship-wahine:

Even before all the troops had left the ship, natives from neighbouring islands were already climbing aboard to see what they could get their hands on.

He [Ivan Dawson] believes the weaponry was removed from the boats to prevent it falling into the wrong hands.

After that, natives from the neighbouring islands were free to raid it after it was abandoned.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

As you know Tony, we have / had more than one Wahine.

Absolutely, and there is NO WAY I would get on ANY ship named the Wahine. Too damn risky.

Saying that, I have been aboard the SS or HMNZHS Maheno a few times, the gallant Gallipoli Hospital ship that is sadly wholly unrecognised for it's sterling service.

[Mike Cecil]

Not a lot of point salvaging a gun without a breech block and firing mechanism. Then there is the ammunition to be supplied.

Very nice shot of the NZ Army in Korea with their 25-pdrs and 'Trailers, Artillery, No.27 Mk.1'. Each Section of two guns had a trailer behind the tractor, and a third tractor towing two trailers as shown (as Rob said before), therefore providing each gun in the Section with two trailers worth (64 rounds) of ready-use ammunition. The two trailers were differentiated by the different loads each carried, apart from the ammunition load of 32 rounds, in 16 trays of 2 complete rounds (projectile and cartridge) in each.

Sub-Section = 1 gun & trailer & tractor
Section = two guns, three tractors, four trailers (2 x Sub-Sections)
Troop = four guns, six tractors, eight trailers. (2 x Sections)
Battery = 8 guns, 12 tractors, 16 trailers (2 x Troops)
Regiment = 24 guns, 36 tractors, 48 trailers (3 x Battery)

Mike

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Not a lot of point salvaging a gun without a breech block and firing mechanism. Then there is the ammunition to be supplied.

A lot of scrounging was going on by both sides of that conflict. The Indonesian army did not have a lot of resources, and the Netherlands Government's purchasing of military equipment was curtailed as the United Nations felt it was appropriate that Indonesia claimed independence. E.g.: the Netherlands Government had to buy vehicles direct from civilian sources, like Willys CJ jeeps and all-wheel drive trucks from Marmon-Herrington.

Combining parts and supplies from various sources could have made the guns functioning again. But without further anecdotal evidence, chances are they were scrapped by the Japanese salvage company along with the ship.

[Mike Cecil]

Hanno, I'd put the salvage and use of 25-pdrs from the Wahine in the highly doubtful category. Removing the breech block means also removing the breech block buffer, striker case, and firing mechanism, all of which would need to be 'found' to reassemble the gun into working order, then locating sufficient of the correct cartridges and projectiles. Not saying it couldn't happen, of course, just that it was highly unlikely.

Tony, I agree with you that HMNZHS Maheno's service and the ship's AIF connection is not well known. The ship's service, plus that of its younger but larger sibling HMNZHS Marama, was from mid-1915 to mid-1919. The AIF connection is mainly the treatment and transport of wounded from the ANZAC beachhead to hospitals in Egypt and Malta. Some were DOW en route and were buried at sea in the Med. Maheno went on to become an ambulance transport between Europe and the UK, so is likely to have transported AIF wounded during that phase as well.

Mike

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Hanno, I'd put the salvage and use of 25-pdrs from the Wahine in the highly doubtful category. Removing the breech block means also removing the breech block buffer, striker case, and firing mechanism, all of which would need to be 'found' to reassemble the gun into working order, then locating sufficient of the correct cartridges and projectiles. Not saying it couldn't happen, of course, just that it was highly unlikely.

You should see what the Italian army did to make demilled Sherman gun barrels usable again. Or what the Isrealis did to beg, steal, borrow and modify weaponry to equip their army.

But like I said Mike, without further anecdotal evidence chances are the 25-pdrs were scrapped by the Japanese salvage company along with the ship.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

It did ring a bell so I had a search for it. Found it in the thread armoured vehicle query, which has more pictures of these types of carrier in the NEI.

That thread has gone missing, alas. I posted this picture, of which a much better quality scan has now been made available in the Dutch National Archives.

There are two Wheeled Carriers, both of which have the typical Indian Army census numbers of which the /|\ has been supplanted by a Dutch flag. They are following a Universal Carrier and what may be a Humfox leading the column.

Beschrijving: Dr. C.P.M. Romme (in licht overhemd). Zit op een pantserwagen, onderdeel van een colonne over de "dodenweg" van Medan naar Belawan
Datum: 2 februari 1947


Source: http://proxy.handle.net/10648/8e5151...f-c6c68ae1fe61

[Hanno Spoelstra]

"1946 India - Soldiers & Daimler Dingo (sic) with Wire cage roof #1"

Source: https://www.ebay.com/itm/393060134180


"1946 India - Soldiers & Daimler Dingo (sic) with Wire cage roof #2"

Source: https://www.ebay.com/itm/393060127604