C.F.B. Borden Museum to be done away with??

[Sean Dunnage]

Just heard from two Base Borden employees that the Museum and its exhibits will soon be done away with. Apparently the new Base Commander is Airforce and sees no significant need of the museum or its' collection. The buildings are to be torn down with no new ones planned. The first building that housed part of the collection has already been demolished. ( this I witnessed myself last week) For those unaware of CFB Bordens collection they house some rare and significant vehicles from Canada's past. Part of the collection includes a German Wirbelwind, panther, Canadian Rams, CMP's, British Matilda, Italian tanks and numerous American pieces. This is but a small list of the 60 or so vehicles from all nations. This doesn't even begin to brush the surface of the smaller items on display or in storage.
Gods I hope this is not true as the base has been part of Canada's armour heritage since the creation of the Armoured Corps.
If anyone has some other info or insight please let us know.
I felt that I had to post this here as it would concern all Canadians if it comes to pass.
Sean

[Dana Nield]

I'm going to fax the Directorate of History and Heritage tomorrow and see what the score is. If anyone else is interested....

Directorate of History and Heritage (DHH)
National Defence Headquarters
101 Colonel By Dr
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada K1A 0K2

FAX: (613) 990-8579


Cheers!

Dana

[Robert Dabkowski]

My first hand knowledge is two years out of date but what I thnk that you are seeing is the demolition of old WW2 vintage "huts and tank hangers" for energy and environmental reasons. Built without insulation, covered in lead paint and full of asbestos on the corrodded hot water/steam pipes they are heated by ancient, inefficient central boilers that no one makes parts for anymore. Borden has an ongoing plan to remove all of them. Also going are most of the old "flightline" aircraft hangers that sheltered the start of the Canadian Air Force. Too little maintenance money has led to too much wood rot in the wooden arches. Too expanesive to repair for a base that sees only an occassional helicopter and student gliders.
Over Cdn$400,000 has been spent on upgrading the Museum's 5 ex-tank hangers in the last 4 years and I can't imagine even DND wasting that much of the taxpayers money (but you never know ... we should all check our sources).

Robert in Toronto

[Sean Dunnage]

Hopefully Rob you are right. As I said I am only going on the scuttlebutt from some DND personnel that work at the base. I don't want to be an alarmist but I have limited knowledge of what goes on in the military world or how to go about finding out anything and I knew that someone on this forum would know how to go about finding things out in a better manner than me knocking on the Base Commanders door. I did make a call today to the Base Commanders office but it has yet to be returned. If or when I hear anything I'll post it here.
I really hope this is just a bad rumour.
Sean

[Dana Nield]

Apparently it is true... I just received this from a friend who I met while on a Museumology course who is a curator of a CF Museum. That said, he wanted his comments posted but would like to remain anonymous for obvious reasons.

Hi,

Here's the bad news, from someone who was in Borden yesterday.

Both hangars that the tanks were in are gone. The vehicles are all sitting out in the open in an empty lot across from the museum. Next to go is the old RCAC Officer's Mess, even though it is a heritage building.

Looks like the Base Comd is keen to get things done quickly before any opposition can be mobilized. Reminds me of the Taliban and the stone Buddas some years ago.

Hard to believe this sort of thing is happening in 2004.

Ladies and Gentlemen, it is time to mobilize.....

I received the following message from the RCAC Association today;

Dear Mr. Johnson:



Thank you for your note and referral to the Maple Leaf Up forum.



We are watching the evolution of the Base Borden Military Museum with some misgivings, despite assurances from authorities. The base spent nearly $1 million to recondition the E-line tank hangars several years ago, two of them specifically to house the AFV holdings. Concurrently, the RCAC Association, in co-operation with the DND Millennium Fund, launched a major AFV restoration project. To date some one dozen vehicles have been completely refurbished and plans exist to continue this important work.



Although the two hangars recently demolished were those destined to house the most important pieces of the collection, the most historically significant units are under cover elsewhere on the base. Anticipating possible changes in priorities, the completed AFVs were refinished in the latest epoxy resin, which should give several decades of outdoor service. This applies also to the future rehabilitation of the remaining 30-odd vehicles.



It is no secret that DND is starved for funds and this is translated into every possible economy A case in point is the south side aircraft hangar line, which despite national historic designation, is in the process of demolition. The RCAC hangars have no such protection(?). In these circumstances, it is likely uncharitable to accuse the base commander of indifference toward army artefacts. Though this association is disappointed in the actions being taken, our resources do not permit us to assist in underwriting museum operating costs, paramount among which is payments in lieu of taxes (PILT) to local township and county governments. We are advised that the tank hangar line costs the base some $250,000 annually for PILT. We are further advised that heating and maintenance costs account for another $100,000 each year.



This association continues to work with the base to overcome obstacles. Notwithstanding, it must be understood that the buildings and artefacts that comprise the Base Borden Military Museum are held by the base commander in right of the Crown and are wholly subject to his discretion.



Cordially,



D.W. Wright, Lt.-Col. (retd)

Secretary-Treasurer RCAC Assn

519-579-8424 Fax 519-579-9522

Web Site: www.rcaca.org

Have a look at this web site it seems that DH&H are in charge but turn the responsibility over to the Base Commander who can set the priorities and do as he pleases. Kind of reminds you of all those paintings from the CWM that went astray. I wonder if some retired general will end up with a tank on his front lawn?

http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dhh/museums/eng...me_e.asp?cat=4

[George Wallace]

With a little experience in the CF Museum system and as an Individual Member in the OMMC, these actions cut me. Up in Pet there are similar things happening, with the distruction of older buildings. Some of you may remember the former HQ Bldg E-1, which was the first Diefenbunker, while the one in Carp was being constructed. It was destroyed a couple years back, as there was another bldg in Calgary, I believe, that was the same design.

The Base Museum here in Petawawa has started a major renovation and will hopefully be reopened for the Base Centennial in 2005. It's storage buildings have slowly been torn down and storage room cut in half each time one of its' buildings disappear.

I know the RCAC Association was/is on a fund raising campaign to preserve and house the Borden Collection. The destruction of the Buildings it is currently housed in, now raises the amounts they will have to raise. I also know that, with all its good intentions, DHH can not do much due to lack of personnel and resources. They are the 'poor cousins' in NDHQ and get probably the lowest of all priorities there.

Preserving Canada's Military History is a very frustrating business in Canada, and in the Canadian Armed Forces itself. We can look no further than the Canadian War Museum to see how little Canadians on a whole feel.

It looks like it is up to the individual to preserve some of our History. A very sad statement of where our National Pride had gone.

George

[Robert Dabkowski]

Visited base Borden today and confirmed that the two northwestern tank hangers have been removed along with at least 8 other buildings around the base, NOT the two recently renovated RCAC tank hangers. DND has mandated cost cutting (They have to pay for the recently announced tax free overseas pay for our troops).
About a dozen 40' sea containers have been rented short term to house items from the removed buildings and to hold the contents of tank hanger #3 which is to be power washed and spraypainted inside.
Also one of the original "flightline hangers" near the runways has been refurbished and given to the Museum so that several ex-RCAF aircraft currently on display outside, can be moved out of the weather (smaller than the two demolished builldings though)
The museum hopes to retain most of its current artifacts although some display cases/racks and tank motors will go to the Oshawa Museum for its operational fleet of vehicles.
Not the original plan for the Base Borden Museum but it will continue and be improved. I suspect that this plan is the best that could be hoped for until the current government is removed from power.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I passed through "CFB Borden" this afternoon to see what has been going on relative to the previous posts. I report as follows:

The museum is gone.

What's left is a half dozen transport containers and concrete pads where the buildings used to be. On these sit the museums's collection of WW2 tanks. I should say, for those who don't know, these vehicles represent, in most cases, sole surviving examples of the breed.

They now sit, exposed to the elements, in three inches of water on the remains of the old concrete floors. Water is prevented from running off by the stubs of the demolished walls.

The vehicles, to quote previous information, have been treated with a durable coat of pea-green paint which should give them "decades of outdoor service". Well, perhaps. The armoured hulls will still be there, but little else. Even now, rust on all soft metal surfaces has re-appeared. Seams and rivets are blistering. In many cases, sandblasting has revealed metal which the paint has missed.

All of them have openings, such as hatches not welded quite shut, engine vents and periscopes, which permit water in. Water has collected with years of flaking paint to form a wet sludge on the floors. The Vickers Mk.VI has gaping holes rusted through the bottom. More thickly hulled vehicles will keep the water inside.

I'm disgusted.

[Keith Webb]

And what has happened to the collection of soft-skin vehicles?
Or is it just the tank part of the collection which has vanished?
What about the archives?

On another note, many of the airforce vets I've interviewed here did their SFTS at Borden on Harvards and sometimes even the hated Yales.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
The museum is gone.

Bruce, thanks for the update. Besides being disgusted too, it is beyond my comprehension how this can happen in a prosperous democracy like Canada.

Hanno

P.S.: read the thread "CFB Borden's Muesum Buildings leveled" on AFV News forum too.

[dougiebarder]

Is there any chance of private collectors begging,borrowing or stealing the vehicles? This sound's like an act of gross stupidity on the part of the Canadian government/airforce. If they are incapable of looking after these pieces of history, somebody with some common sense should be given the chance to save them. As hanno said " it's disgusting".

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Doug, that's what I'm trying to find out...

[Robert Dabkowski]

Bruce et al, Hold on a minute !!! You are thoroughly confused. Please see my previous posting here on MLU. The concrete pads under the tanks/containers that you were looking at were NOT the museum buildings (although two in the worst condition WERE demolished) NOTHING has been lost/destroyed/stolen. The three recently renovated tank hangers/firearms display are still standing ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STREET !!!!!!!!!!! and ARE posted with museum signs accordingly. The containers were brought in as a temporary measure to hold museum items while building #3 is being steam cleaned, power washed and spray painted inside. THEN the tanks will be moved back indoors and siding, roofing and heating work done. Silly way to do refurbishment, I agree but the base spends the money the second that they get it so that it can't be taken away later.

You have created a tempest in a teapot !! With NO need. You SHOULD have taken the time to stop and talk to Museum staff to find out what is REALLY going on instead of panicing this community unnecessarilly. And the museum HQ gives out free maps so that you might be able to FIND their various buildings on the base. Instead of just being disgusted/misinformed, why don't you devote some of your considerable MV knowledge/cash to helping the (mostly volunteer) museum staff with their efforts ?

Again, please read my earlier posting here on MLU !!!!
Robert in Toronto

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Rob:

I'm holding on, and reporting what I saw. Perhaps you misinterpret my 'gone'. You're right, the museum is still there, albeit in a barely recognizable form. If this represents an unfortunate but necessary step in migrating to a new facility, it shows a sorry regard for their artifacts at best. I wonder if this will really end in a better museum? All the comments above tell of shrinking budgets, scrambling for space and resources. Are you sure this won't mean "additional decades of outdoor service" if things get any tighter? As this concern applies equally to Petawawa and is shared by Lt. Col. Wright and others, I don't think it is groundless. By letting our view known it can only help convince them there are some of us left who care. As to committing my time and resources to helping out, current projects and location prevent that.

Two thoughts though: if, when it comes time to pass my vehicles on I donate them to Borden, I hope my efforts to restore them won't be undone with a coat of decades-durable paint and a nice outdoor location. Second, if they deliver the Light Vickers to my garage and give me a few bucks, I'll return it to them in a few years a little prettier than it is now.

[Robert Dabkowski]

Bruce, its hard to make a mistake when the message is, "The museum is gone. Whats left is a half dozen transport containers and concrete pads where the buildings used to be". Forgive my loose quote but it sounds like TOTAL OBLITERATION to me. And this is NOT the case.

Had you ever visited the museum previously ? Not in a recognizable form ? Of the 5 tank hangers, "H" hut HQ and two storage sheds, two of the hangers are gone. A third which was never actually used by the Museum because it held Base "Married Quarters" furniture will replace both of the demolished units as one was only 10% used for the Hetzer restoration, the other 70% full as vehicle storage. AND an aircraft hanger has been added. In fact, NOTHING MUCH HAS CHANGED except that approximately Cdn$1/2 million of Base funds have been spent of refurbishing Museum buildings over the last three years.

Disgusting indeed.

There was no public notice because the Base only received one weeks (yes 1) notice themselves. One week to decide which buildings were to go, take bids, sign contracts, arrange the containers, move artifacts and demolish the rotten old carcasses.
Orders from DND in Ottawa are ORDERS not an invitation to politely debate an issue. A good weeks work in my opinion. And as a civil engineer and full time building inspector I can assure you that the two hangers were NOT worth the cost of saving. The Base didn't want the tanks out in the rain but with no time and nowhere else to put them, thats where they ended up ... just like the 58 previous YEARS. Maybe another month in the rain will destroy them but I doubt it. They'll certainly take it better than the uniforms/medals/firearms/photographs/paintings/books/etc. would do.

Don't get mad at the Base. Get on the phone to your Liberal Member of Parliament to demand more museum funding. The new Canadian War Museum (good for Liberal photo oportunities and vote-getting) has dragged in almost twice its initial cost because of the political decision to build it on polluted ground so now funding for other museums is drying up (not enough funds to hire Group Action from Quebec).

Were it not for many dedicated Base Commanders and a legion of ex-servicemen/women there would be no more museums on Canadian Forces Bases. The Liberals don't see enough votes in the issue to extend the funding to preserve our country's history. And indeed, do the taxpayers care ? Not sure but I continue to volunteer at the Museum in the hope that they do/will. I would NOT however leave my own restored ex-military vehicles to the less than tender care of the current government.

Be assurred that there is an ongoing scramble for funds and that our Museums COULD disappear for political reasons at almost any time. The military would be sad to see them go but if funds get too tight, $ will be spent to keep the troops alive rather than to preserve history.

When the next election comes around remind your friends what Cdn$2 BILLION could have done for museums instead of being wasted on the firearms registry. The Bluenose Foundation ripped off. Today's Auditor Generals Report on wasted taxpayer dollars at our country's airport etc etc etc. We need new management.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

We seem to be in agreement.

[Snowtractor]

... the gov has a bad record for deciding to crush and bury materiel bldgs etc rather than going to the hassle of selling the stuff off at crown assets. The Militaria/vehicles there would 'likely' not be on the books anymore because it was decomissioned. Therefore no item line in bookkeeping to enable crown assets to sell it , soooo.....crush. That and the political backlash would be short and sweet instead of selling off the stuff and having a lingering wound. They will use the good old fallback " liability " " if we sold a tank and someone dropped it on their toe, we might be liable" . Which we know would not be the case but the liability word is used all the time to justify questionable practice.
Hopefully , the boys at Shilo get creative and it works out okay.
Will fire off an email in support of them regardless.
Sean

[Robert Dabkowski]

Sean, care to backup your comments with an actual example of when and where this kind of thing happened in Canada ? Something that can be verified rather than just "a friend of a friend of mine's second cousins brother told him that ............".

Bet you can't.

Actually, most museum items (and certainly if a tax receipt was issued) are on a "Designated Artifacts" List. The museum curator (and hence the Base Commander) are PERSONNALLY liable to fines/imprisonment if any item on the DA List goes missing. And there ARE boffins that show up every other year to do spot checks. I was at the Base Borden Museum when just such an audit took place. A cute little girl showed up from Ottawa unannounced, pulled out a computer printout, flipped thru it at random, pointed to an item without looking to see what it was and said, "Show me this, now !" Fortunately the WW2 U-boat brass binoculars set was only on the third rack up and amazingly the serial numbers matched. I think she worked for the Auditor General and we know what a bulldog that lady is. Checked 88 items and went away as happy as a clam.

This is not to say that there are no criminals at all in the system BUT "good stuff" is NOT as casually handled as you suggest.

Man, it seems that everyone on this list hates the Museums. Lighten up guys. They are just a bunch of poor slobs like us, trying to save some history for a public/government that doesn't care.

Robert in Toronto

[dougiebarder]

"Man, it seems that everyone on this list hates the Museums. Lighten up guys. They are just a bunch of poor slobs like us, trying to save some history for a public/government that doesn't care."

I don't think anybody hates the museum, but they/we possibly do love the exhibits and want to make sure they're being looking after properly.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Robert Dabkowski
Man, it seems that everyone on this list hates the Museums. Lighten up guys.

Hey, Rob, we don't hate the museums, we simply hate the gummint bureaucracy which determines their fate!

Rob what has happened to all the paintings from the CWM that decorated the offices of some of our senior officers. They seem to think that these paintings were their own personal property and they took them home when they retired. I was at 6PD in Toronto when a CO retired, he asked the Quartermaster Sgt to sign off on his sheet when he retired the Quartermaster refused and was given an order to sign off. He did sign off but with the comment "Signed under Protest". It was the first time that I had heared the phrase but it sure came in handy later in my career. Just the threat of those three words were enough to discourage some Officers.
I believe that none of the paintings have been returned to the the CWM.

[Robert Dabkowski]

Art, I haven't the faintest idea of what happened to "your paintings". I choose to take your comments not as a condemnation of poor museum artifact management but rather of a criminally minded officer corps. Who watches the watchers is my question ? If a Base Commander chooses to steal a militry item is it the curator's fault or the CO's ?

Why don't you forward all the details of the events (which I gather, transpired long before my time) and I'll see what I can find out. Better still, why don't you contact CWM and ask them yourself ? After all, you are the expert, having witnessed it all. You could then update this list on the results !

Who painted them, what were the subjects, the dates ? Are you sure that they came from CWM and not via DND HQ ? If you are so sure that thefts occurred, did YOU file a report with the authorities at the time or just take the easy way out and look the other way, saying nothing ?

"This is not to say that there are no criminals at all in the system ..." was my comment in an earlier posting in this thread. By keep silent all these years you may have allowed a crime to go undetected... and thereby encouraged more.

The are many, many examples in Canada of a grateful Nation presenting its retiring military leaders with reminders of their years of service. I know of Sherman tanks being given, Ferrets, jeeps, firearms, swords, flags, penants and even a WW2 German 88mm (thankfully now back at CWM after sitting in the weeds in a scrapyard for 5 years when his wife sent it there after his passing). Perhaps these paintings were an example of this type of presentation to your retiring CO?

The ultimate example of this type of tribute is seen in the fact that General Worthington is buried in CFB Borden Museum's Worthington Park, amongst his "tank corp". A rare honour. Is this a crime too ? I can just imagine Worthy's comment after being described as a "museum artifact" !!

Robert in Toronto

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Robert Dabkowski
Man, it seems that everyone on this list hates the Museums. Lighten up guys. They are just a bunch of poor slobs like us, trying to save some history for a public/government that doesn't care.

Robert, thanks for setting us straight on some assumptions we made based on incomplete information. I am involved in military museums here in the Netherlands, and often wonder why certain decisions are taken. As caretakers of a country's heritage museums are obliged to tell the public about the why's, how's and when's - sadly their communication on this often lacks. In many cases it helps if a member of a certain interest group is closely involved and can explain what is going on to his peers.
Thanks for your efforts and please keep up the good work!

Regards,
Hanno

[Snowtractor]

Transport Canada airports privatised about 7-8 years ago now. Very few working at the airports had heard a whisper of it and in unusual speed within a year and a half transport CANADA was out of the airport running business. This airport alone had three buildings torn down and nothing was sold from them. The year they switched over they bought new equipment and refurbished the garage before handing it over to the GNWT. There were beautiful steel work benches , shelving , lighting, heaters , and an older airport sweeper/blower that went to the dump and they even hauled out their own cat to crush it themselves so no one else would get it. Having a wife who worked for them as a clerk and hearing how stuff that was decomissioned was off the books and they had no line to get money for it I understand that part. I have been told that it is all supposed to crown stores to be sold off but there are loopholes, like if you say its unserviceable. These are a couple of things I witnessed working at the airport like the 200,000 crash truck being sold to the town for a buck and then the town sold it off for 9000 dollars. I have heard of "other" stories but I was not accessing them when I said care should be taken. I didn't say it 'WOULD' happen, only that it could.
Now you have a story to reference second hand :-)
Sean
PS I should add that one of the bldgs destroyed has a beautiful cement basement and at over 200dollars per yard for cement you generally keep those. The company I worked for tried to rent it for and had written up and offer to refurbish it inside and out AND pay rent at the going rate, which on an airport is exorbitant. But they chose to destroy the building instead. These things happen.
PPS I don't hate museums, I wish they would get more funding Like the Vimy memorial should or the new Canadian war museum in France. I hope to give my carrier and memorabilia to one sometime in the future, possibly the Winnipeg Rifles little museum. To your point about concientious people in gov. , there are many. I consider myself and my wife two of them, but I have seen stuff walk out the door as my wife has and paid the price for being diligent. I was threatened with my job, the manager got training and a promotion, whatever. Once again I just say keep an eye on what happens, the base commander may have no choice in the matter.

Rob, the question was retorical. The paintings I believe are all done by Official War Artists. The CWM knows about it as they were the ones who discovered that they had gone astray. The CWM has a form or they at least did have a form that was required to be signed by a responsible person for any artifacts that are out on loan. This form is required to be renewed every five years, at least that was the way it was done when I was more involved with our museum. There is no doubt that the staff is overworked and it is just impossible for them to keep up with all the details of where everything is. Hopefully with the new museum there will be more space to display more of the huge inventory of painting that the CWM has.
The paintings in question were on loan, the Museum thought it was a good idea to have them on display somewhere rather than in storage. Some are or have been on display in the Commons and the Senate chambers of the Parlaiment Buildings.
Believe me Rob I have never looked the other way in my life when something has been wrong and I have the scars to prove it. The CO in question returned the articles after the QMS made his comment and wouldn't back down.
With regard to the museum at Borden it may well be time to be concerned, Chris Wattie has a report in the National Post about the short fall of money in DND, here is an extract from that report;
"The army has been working to reduce the number of barracks, garrisons and armouries for which it is responsible, but has been unable to knock down old structures quickly enough. "While demolition of buildings in excess to requirements is proceeding apace, it is unlikely that the army will achieve an overall 10% realty reduction by 2005."

[Robert Dabkowski]

At long last I present two pics from my March 23/04 visit to the CFB Borden Museum. (Steep learning curve on this computer stuff)

Just barely visible over the rear deck of Bruce's beloved Vickers we see a museum ground sign in the distance indicating that the two tank hangers on the left rear side of the photo (orange and the 3 times larger grey) are Museum buildings. Someone on a different thread was asking about Bobcat prototypes ... that is it to the left of the Vickers.

Robert Dabkowski

[Robert Dabkowski]

Sorry, haven't sorted out how to attach 2 pics to one posting, yet.

Another photo from my March 23/04 visit to CFB Borden Museum. To the far left and wearing yellow is the "demolition machine" responsible for the dirty deeds that got everyone so upset. It stands where the two demolished hangers used to be. They were similar in size and shape to the white building shown, tank hanger #3. After building repairs, the tanks will (mostly) go back in this structure. A few are to be displayed, on a rotating basis and summertime only, outside amongst the trees/hills behind these tank hangers. The WW2 German PAK and the ground sign are the clues that this is a Museum building. Note the second PAK to the right side of my friend's car. Another ground sign just out of the photo indicates that the "orange" building is also a part of the museum.

Unfortunately, I didn't think at the time, to photograph the "H" hut Museum HQ building or the newly transfered airplane hanger. Will return when it isn't snowing and do proper pics of all museum buildings and aircraft/vehicles stored outside on the base.

Robert in Toronto