Carrier Brake problems

Jordan Baker · #1 03-12-07, 23:41

Hi everyone

I had the carrier out for a bit on Saturday and part way into the drive I lost the ability to make RH turns. I managed to get the carrier back and into the barn by only doing LH turns.

Anyway on further investigation I noticed that the linkage CGB 1926 seemed to be pulled far out of the back of the expander housing.

Jordan Baker · #2 03-12-07, 23:47

My fear was that it had broken and that I would need to get a new one made. However I pulled off the hub/drum and once the expander had been removed to my pleasure it had not broken at all. It had simply been pulled to far and the small plug CGB 1207 had gone past the small roller CGB 232 and the stud CGB 2306. The spring on the brake shoes then forced them all back and would not allow the parts to return to normal.

You can just see the roller inside the expander.

Jordan Baker · #3 03-12-07, 23:53

So now I have pulled the brakes apart on both sides and am going to do a complete overhaul. My LH brake was acting up a bit this past summer and with the RH one not working at all I figured I might as well tackle them both.

Anyway this was the condition of the insides when I pulled them apart. Notice the non-orginal springs at the top. Two small ones were used to make the correct length and were joined by a washer.

I have also pulled the adjusters off and will get them cleaned up. Both them and the expanders were caked in 60plus year old grease and dirt. I couldn't make many of the bits move by hand pressure so it amazes me the carrier drove the way it did over the last few years.

Jordan Baker · #4 03-12-07, 23:56

Here are what the brake linings looked like. Im going to get them relined soon with new pads. I read an old thread on the forum that suggested getting them bonded on instead of riviting. Does this still hold true. Or better yet are there any shoes available today that are new made and will fit?

Jordan Baker · #5 03-12-07, 23:58

Finaly here is what the hubs looked like. How do I tell if these need to be "machined" or new brake shoes?

I will have more pictures on the way soon once I get the expanders and adjusters cleaned up. I would really like to find out why that part pulled out further then it was supposed to go.

Jordan Baker · #6 04-12-07, 00:17

Some of the axle fastners. I seem to be short on the adapters BB 1142. Does anyone know if there is a modern substitute or if there are any original supplies around.

Jordan Baker · #7 04-12-07, 00:19

Various hub bearing retaining nuts and bearings. Im going to clean up the nuts with a parts cleaning sollution. Should I also do this to the bearings or jsut leave them as is?

Ledsel · #8 04-12-07, 00:48

Hi Jordan. First off your brakes need to be replaced as that is why they " over cammed" (trucker talk) Meaning that the shoes are too thin so that the rollers could move far enough that the wedge pulled by them. I'm not sure but most drums have a maximum dia. on them so check to see , should be cast into the drum edge possibly. But in your case a light turning to remove the glaze would not hurt a bit as you are not as (dangerous) as a truck on the highway. As for the nuts and bearings yes do kleen them . Wash the bearings very well to get any grit or sand etc. and repack them with a good quality wheel bearing grease. You will be surprised at how easy it will steer and stop after all that. Oh and the fasteners can be found at any Traction or Napa store.

rob love · #9 04-12-07, 03:08

Jordan
Sorry, but no luck on the brake springs. Looks like I sold them all.
A couple guys stocked up some extras...maybe they will offer to share.

There are a couple things you should do to ensure primo steering on yor carrier.
I offer these tips on top of the common sense things like porper linkage adjustment, new inner seals, properly repacking the bearings, etc...:

1) reline your shoes. The guys who do it will likely bond them.

2.) get the drums turned. Anything less than a perfect smooth surface will only diminish the steering. If your drums are scored, then you will only get a fraction of the braking potential.

3) make sure the shoes are arced to the drums. If you hold the shoe into the drum, the entire surface of the shoe should sit tight to the drum surface. If it rocks back and forth, or only contacts at the outer edges, then you are not getting the full advantage of the brake shoes. Sometimes you can grind them yourselve with a sanding disc on the angle grinder, but use a mask and do it outside. Any good brake shop should be able to do this for you. Likely the shop that relines your brakes can.

Don't worry about the diameter of the drums. There is mega meat on them, and you are not trying to be road legal anyway. There is no specs that I could find for maximum diameter anyway.

Jordan Baker · #10 04-12-07, 05:32

Thanks for the info and help

So if any of you guys that bought extra springs would like to part with 4 of them please send me a PM.

I got all of the expander and adjuster parts cleaned up tonight. My expander parts seem to be in very good shape. However the plungers for the adjusters have been "modified" by brazing on some brass.

I would presume this was to take up the slack caused by worn out brake pads. One of the plungers had the brazing actually off of it but still in the adjuster housing being held "in place" by the old grease/dirt mixture.

My question is if I can simply grind off the old brazing to bring these plungers back to speck. Would that be the best way to remove them. The manual doesn't give any specs for them to suggest when they would be worn out. Or does anyone have any NOS spares kicking around that they could measure for me.

Jordan Baker · #11 04-12-07, 05:45

Here is the adjuster assembly. You can really see how much the brazing has added to the length of the plungers.

Jordan Baker · #12 04-12-07, 05:55

Here is the expander assembly. I think part of the reason why the central piston pulled out was that there were no cotter pins in the housing. The parts manual shows them as # GB 1407 Pin split and replaced by # 72089 S2 Pin 1/8" x 1-3/4" cotter. If they had been installed it would have limited the amount of travel that the two sliding plungers have. I have marked the various locations with the red arrows for clarification.

The odd thing is that the Maint. manual has no mention of the cotter pins.

Phil Waterman · #13 04-12-07, 15:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Jordan Baker
Some of the axle fastners. I seem to be short on the adapters BB 1142. Does anyone know if there is a modern substitute or if there are any original supplies around.

Yes the nut cones are available I’ve bought them with in the last year, take a sample to a heavy truck parts supplier they come in bags of 10 and are not very expensive.

Snowtractor · #14 05-12-07, 04:35

Hi JOrdan,
I would gladly sell you one of my spare set, but I believe they are in storage and I have no access to them . They may be in the carrier but I can not drive out and look until the weekend. It too is in storage in a friends barn some distance from here.
That said I was going to say that the brake piston should not be able to pull out, but you figured that out already. When putting the rollers and pieces in they can go in backwards easily so make sure you test first.
I do have the brake peices in the shed and can measure them up for you if you need to know original lengths.
They likely added the brazing to lenghten the use of the drums and linnings instead of replacing them. A transport truck brake place should know how or where to reline them.
I would use a brazing head and torch and just melt the brazing off. Shouldn't get too hot to affect the base material.
Last ditch would be using tractor trailer springs. They come in different poundages and have swiveling hooks on the ends and worked in my carrier. Although I matched up the length with an old broken spring. I will try to find a pic on the net.
yours
Sean

Snowtractor · #15 05-12-07, 04:56

Hi Jordan,
the red ones are the ones I used but the blue ones swivel also. They should be readily available at a heavy truck place. Like Fort Garry Industries or such.
Sean

Jordan Baker · #16 05-12-07, 05:15

HI Sean

Thanks for the info.

I will give a torch a try on the weekend to see if the brazing will melt off or I may just use the bench grinder and bring them back real close and hand file the rest off.

I will gladly take a spare set of springs off of your hands once you find them.

I got the name of a heavy truck brake place in town from one of the guys I work with. He is now retired but used to drive race/drag cars and was also a bus/ truck mechanic for many years. He used to send all of his brake work to them. Thats who I will be calling in the next day or so.

When I describe how all the parts worked in the carrier brake system, his comment was "thats so 1910's technology"

Lynn Eades · #17 05-12-07, 22:04

There are a number of possibilities for your problems.
Your bisector can be assembled incorrectly, to give a minimal amount of travel as snow tractor says. So make sure they are assembled correctly, lubed with a suitable high temp grease.
The split pins just hold them together. Think carefully as you put them together. You are looking to get the maximum piston travel, in other words the ramp on the midldle bit, sits at the opposite angle to the ramp of the outer parts.
The reason for the bronze is that the linings were too thin.
If you turn out the drums then the replacement linings must be equally thicker. Your drums may allready have been turned out (How many times?) Not to offend or disagree with what Rob is saying, but unlike current road transport, replacement drums are not easy to find for a carrier, So, I would be trying my best to clean out my drums with emery tape to get a good clean surface, rather than take more meat out of them.
These brakes work very hard, and need the "meat" in the drum wall to do the job.
You also want a lining that works well at low speed. The brake people may recommend a woven lining for this application.
Because you dont know how many times your drum may have been turned out, you need to take your shoes and drums to the brake specialists and have a lining of the correct thickness, that is "radius ground" to suit the drum.
Clean those bearings and all other parts well. Lube your bearings well, but dont pack the hub full of grease. Use new seals (if they leak the grease will ruin your linings)
Make your brake adjustments as per the book, before you fit the axles, or track.
A brake is an energy converter. It turns kinetic energy into heat.

Jordan Baker · #18 05-12-07, 23:01

Thanks Lynn

As for the drums I have a spare set sitting in my basement. I will measure the inside radius and compare it to the ones off of my carrier.

So when i do take the hubs/ shoes in should I have already cleaned all of the rust from them and repainted them. I would presume I should also remove all the old grease from inside the drum.

What seals/retainers do you refer to. Is it part # BB 1175 and C01T 4702? I think I may already have a pair of BB 1175.

Whereabouts would I get new ones for the other part #?

Paul Singleton · #19 06-12-07, 02:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Snowtractor
Hi Jordan,
the red ones are the ones I used but the blue ones swivel also. They should be readily available at a heavy truck place. Like Fort Garry Industries or such.
Sean

Hi Jordan, the picture shows a standard Meritor/rockwell spring kit for "Q" type truck air brakes. Any heavy truck parts shop will be able to get these for you.

Paul

rob love · #20 06-12-07, 02:54

The inner wheel seal (The one that is on the innermost part of the drum) is a commercial seal still produced today. It was used on many Ford chassis.

The outer wheel seal (the one that goes with the bearing adjusting nuts) has not been produced for many years. It's job was to keep the oil from entering in with the grease.
Many guys simply toss these out nowadays. Personally, I bend the lip of the leather part out so it will make a bit better contact and reuse them.
The oil mixed in with the grease is a great lubricant, but where the problem will come in is if the hub gets too full it may leak past the inner seal and onto the brake shoes. The origional seals had an oil slinger to direct any oil leaking past out a little pee hole in the back pate of the brakes. This hole is usually filled with mud, so it doesn't work so well.

Lynn
No offense taken with regard to the turning of the drums. Everything must be done to moderation. But no amount of sanding will replace the braking effort achieved by having a set of drum surfaces round and smooth. Since the manuals do not give a drum diameter, I had always believed the army merely replaced the drums instead of turning them. 30 or 40 thou off, with the shoes suitably mated, won't hurt anything. Since the carrier is now less likely to ever see the abuse that it had when it was in service, I would almost bet this will be the last brake job done for a few decades.

Has anyone measured canadian carrier drums and compared to see if the drums were omre or less a standard size, or if the army turned them?

Jordan Baker · #21 06-12-07, 03:21

These are the NOS ones that I have. When i took the hub off I don't remember seeing this seal. The bearing did fall out into my hands.

Or does it go under that sheet metal cone attached to the backing plate?

Ledsel · #22 06-12-07, 03:23

Sounds like someone did a mickey mouse brake job.

Jordan Baker · #23 06-12-07, 03:26

Maybe so but it worked for a good number of years. I guess the amount of driving it has had from me in the last 3 1/2 years caught up with the poor repair job.

Ledsel · #24 06-12-07, 03:33

That's O.K. it's just good that it probably was driven very little so water and crap didn't get a chance to damage the bearings. And if I remember right it was not in drivable condition when you got it. it sure has changed.

Jordan Baker · #25 06-12-07, 03:41

I don't know much about it history other then the previous owner used to spin it around in his backyard very occasionaly. When I got it I only had to get the engine runing and that was it. This is the first I have had to mess around with the controls or adjust the linkages. The first sign of trouble was this past Canada Day when it wouldn't make a good left turn going down the parade route. At that time Charlie Fitton adjusted the adjuster screw and said it didn't seem right to him. A few weeks later I was driving around with lots of turns and nothing was wrong. SO it was hit and miss this summer and now I know why. Hopefuly by spring it will be good as new again.

Thanks again to everyone for their words of wisdom.

rob love · #26 06-12-07, 04:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Jordan Baker
These are the NOS ones that I have. When i took the hub off I don't remember seeing this seal. The bearing did fall out into my hands.

Or does it go under that sheet metal cone attached to the backing plate?

Those go on the inside of the drum. Your old ones may still be there, hidden amongdst the muck. There will be an inner wheel bearing located behind it.
Clean up the area first, and you will find a large snapring retaining the seal. Remove the snapring with a large screwdriver. If the snapring doesn't want to move, you may have to give a slight tap to the old seal to move it away from the snapring.

Now, with a long brass drift, hammer the inside cone of the bearing from the outside of the drum. Be careful not to hit the metal cage that holds the little rollers in place. work around the inside edge until the seal pops out. The bearing will now fall out.

Clean the inside of the drum, the snapring, and the bearings with solvent. They should be spotless.
Once you have the brake drum turned or sanded or whatever you decide to do, Pack the bearings with grease, and place the inside bearing back into the hub. Your inner wheel seals are leather and should be soaked in oil for a half hour before installing them. Ideally, you would use a seal installer or a large pice of pipe that fits to the outer edge of the seal. That way you don't distort the seal. But if you don't have those, you can usually get away with a light hammer and a brass drift. Punch the seal in just past the snap ring, then install the snap ring. Now, with a clean drift, knock the seal back out so it is against the snap ring.

Clean out the inside of the metal cone attahced to the backing plate, and also clean out the little pee hole at the bottom of the cone. This will allow any oil or grease that do sneak past the seal to go outside of the drums and away from the shoes.

Carefull when installing the drum onto the spindle that you don't hit or distort the seal. Install the outer bearing, and then the first adjusting nut. Do not overtighten the bearings...you will end up siezing them. Follow the manual for the adjustment of the bearing.

Ledsel · #27 06-12-07, 04:15

In your photo of the drum the inner bearing is still in the hub. So is the seal. i don't believe there is a snap ring as I have never seen one on a ford rear before. And you shouldn't have to remove the inner race to remove the seal and cone.

rob love · #28 06-12-07, 05:41

If you have a look at illustration plate one or two in the UC parts manual, you will see what I am talking about. Take note of item 1180C, which is the snap ring of which I warned about.
And when I mentioned brass drifting on the center cone of the bearing, I was talking about the middle of item BB4221, not the race 4222. Indeed, that race can stay in the hub, unless, on cleaning and inspection, it is scored or pitted.

I have yet to see a carrier without the snap ring.

Jordan Baker · #29 06-12-07, 06:59

Ok I got it figured out now Rob. I was thinking in terms of outside to inside the hub and you were describing them from the inside of the hub to the outside.

I will take them all apart on Saturday and get the stuff cleaned up.

Im getting a little "braked" out as Im also doing a complete rebuild on my jeep brakes. Thankfuly with the Jeeps I can get new parts for everything. However this is still fun fixing stuff instead of replacing with new. The important thing is im learning.

Bob Carriere · #30 06-12-07, 22:24

Hi Rob

From the pictures posted of the seals and your written description it sounds like identical parts/process to a regular CMP rear brake drum and parts... save for the sprocket bolted on the drum....

Are my assumptions correct...?

Bob