Firefly tank

[luc désormeaux]

I'm askind this question to our well documented friends: Do you know if Firefly tanks were used by the Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment in Europe ??
I have a friend of mine who wants to put some Sherbrooke's marking on his Firefly kit but i could not find any info on this.
Thanks

[John McGillivray]

The Sherbrooke Fusiliers had been equipped with Sherman Vc Fireflies before their embarkation for the Normandy landings. Below is a table showing the loading of the landing craft carrying the Sherbrooke Fusiliers. It is from the book “Bloody Buron! Canada’s D-Day + 1” by John Gilbert.

It shows that the Sherbrooke Fusiliers had landed on D-day with: 12 Sherman Vc, 46 Sherman III, 10 Stuart V, and 6 Humber Scout Cars.

[luc désormeaux]

Hi John,
Thanks for your reply. In the listing, when it says "Sherman Vc" their not refering to Fireflies right ?? Then, when were they used those Fireflies ? In England ??

[John McGillivray]

The “Sherman V” is the British designation for the American 75mm M4A4. The letter “C” is added to the British designation when the Sherman is fitted with the British 17 pounder gun. In other words the Sherman Vc is the 17 pounder equipped version of the Sherman V. The 17 pounder Shermans are also known as the “Firefly”.

The Sherbrooke Fusiliers received the Fireflies (Sherman Vc) just before they were loaded on the ships for the Normandy invasion. They landed on the Normandy Beaches on the afternoon of June 6th. Their first action was on June 7th along with the North Nova Scotia Highlanders. Below is a photo of a Sherman Vc firefly from the Sherbrooke Fusiliers which was knocked out on June 7th near Authie. The troops standing on the tank are from the 12th SS Panzer Division “Hitlerjugend”

See the link below for the account of the battles on June 7th, 1944, from the Regimental history of the North Novas.

North Nova Scotia Highlanders History

[luc désormeaux]

Thanks John for those info,
I did know the designation of the "c". After landing, did they received some Sherman V ? If i can remember i saw some pics of Sherman V running through the streets of Falaise with Sherbrooke Fusiliers markings. Also did they used their Fireflies till the end of war?
Would you (or someone else) has some pics of a Firefly with Sherbrooke markings?
Thanks again and sorry for all those questions!! I just need to clarify this point with my friends.
Luc

[Darrell Zinck]

Would you (or someone else) has some pics of a Firefly with Sherbrooke markings?

No clear markings. Sorry.

From: Illustrated History of the RCAC. Marteinson and McNorgan. 2000 RCAC Assoc.


regards
Darrell

[Bob Cohoon]

Just out of interest,there is a Sherman Firefly outside the Three Rivers Regiment armoury in Trois Rivieres,Quebec.it's mounted on a cement base.

[luc désormeaux]

Hi Enthusiast,
It seems that the Three-Rivers "Firefly" is in fact a "fake" one.
Follow this link for info:
Three-Rivers Regiment "Cathy"

[Jack Geratic]

Sorry for resurrecting a decade old thread, but have a question about the markings for the Sherbrooke regiment.

Is there any known reason why the formation and unit signs are not visible in the period photos/stills of the action around Authie and Buron of June 7 1944?

Did they not have time to apply them, an order not to use them, bad film reproduction, or something else?



Any ideas what the numbering scrawled on the front here represents - loading info or was this something the Germans put on after this Vc was knocked out?

regards,
Jack

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jack Geratic

Any ideas what the numbering scrawled on the front here represents - loading info or was this something the Germans put on after this Vc was knocked out?

Jack, the numbers on the co-driver's hatch indeed look like loading information indicating which landing craft it should be stowed on.

Hanno

[Ed Storey]

It looks like the complete loading code is

1044/1/716

[servicepub (RIP)]

The first set of numbers, i.e., 1044, is always the Unit Serial. This number is used in a variety of official uses, including the War Diary and is established under Canadian Army General Orders.
As many units only received their Shermans shortly before the invasion it is not unusual to see these without markings.
C

[Bob Cohoon]

I think it was standard practice for censors to paint out squadron markings in photographs released for the public

[Jack Geratic]

Thanks everyone, great job in figuring out the exact number sequence.

I don't think though the photo stills that I'm referring to, http://www.britishpathe.com/video/d-...an+perspective are an example of censored markings, as this was a film made by the Germans after the actions of June 7th.

regards,
Jack

[John McGillivray]

Here are the landing craft serials for SFR. Note that serial 1716 consist of one Sherman Vc, two Sherman III, two Humber scout cars, and 4 porpoises ; with three officers and 17 personnel.

Note that SFR was still training with Ram Tanks in late April 1944.

[John McGillivray]

I don't remember where I got this photo from, but it shows SFR with their new Shermans.

[Jack Geratic]

So can it be confirmed that no air recognition star was painted on the turret top or engine deck?

There is also this photo (which I think is "Chaser") and has what looks to be a white painted ammo box attached to the .50 cal gun. Was this some form of recognition?



Doesn't seem to be an isolated case either, as it seen on a FGH firefly nicknamed 'Death Takes A Holiday' and this photo:



regards,
Jack

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Jack,

The white painted ammo can was used in vehicles like the Fox armoured car where it was part if the internal stowage, hence the white colour.

Hanno

[tankbarrell]

That's a D68735 50 round .50 cal box. Sometimes seen in white, other times OD, both correct.

It makes sense if the white ones were from vehicles such as Fox but is that confirmed?

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by John McGillivray

I don't remember where I got this photo from, but it shows SFR with their new Shermans.

What a nice looking Sherman, all clean and unscuffed. Notice the trick with a single loose roadwheel inside the track to feed it smoothly onto the sprocket.

[motto]

They are removing the track from that Sherman. The driver is following instructions from the fellow in front and the road wheels are positioned so as when the end of the track comes of the sprocket it can be rolled out flat without locking into the section on the ground.
From my limited experience, the easy way to get a track on is to use another vehicle and a cable to pull it over the sprocket or return rollers. I wonder how these fellows did it?

David

[David Dunlop]

David.

I was wondering the same thing about them replacing the tracks, but there appears to be a small right rear corner showing of a 4th Sherman in front of that one.

Also what caught my eye was that the Sherman in the foreground is a different model from the two behind it. Note the lack of vision slots for the driver and bow gunner and the inside face of the open turret hatch is green, whereas the two in the rear show white inside surfaces. The lower front hull is also cast.

David

[David Herbert]

Good question about what they are doing with the tracks of the Sherman in post 16.

I agree that they are removing them but it would be far easier to do one at a time as you can still move the tank with the other track. Also it is normal practice to break the track under the sprocket as that way when you put it back on you can use a rope round the sprocket as a capstan to pull the track forward and when the teeth engage the top run of the track can be kept in tension while you re-connect the track. Done right on firm level ground it is not too much of a job for two people, the worst bit is getting the end connectors off, made worse by the fact that the proper tool was designed to fit Stuart too and is realy not man enough for Sherman track.

David (another one!)

[David Dunlop]

Knowing nothing about tank maintenance, but a bit about UC's, I will just toss this out for review.

Would a brand new Sherman require a break in period for it's tracks, like a new Carrier does, necessitating removal of one or more links to maintain correct tension?

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned the regiment had only just received new equipment shortly before embarking for Normandy. Perhaps they needed to break in the new track as quickly as possible before going into action and if that was their priority, it would also support the lack of markings being applied to them: time spent being painted up was time lost for crews to get used to the new equipment.

David

[Bob Cohoon]

I read a bit in an M4 manual I am lucky enough to have, and it`s possible they were turning them around. Apparently, if they have a reversible type track,like the steel cleat ones on that one, they can turn them around which will extend the life of tracks with worn guide horns ( where the sprockets bear ).Turning them around gives brand new faces for the sprockets to bear against. They did that both sides at a time, doing half the track at a time, disconnecting and re-connecting below the drive sprocket, 16 " in front of the first bogie. They use another tank to pull the tank, being worked on, forward , and can use the drive sprockets, with a tow cable wound on it with a steel bar as the cross pin in the sprocket, to pull the tracks on when doing the other half of the job. The sprockets can be reversed, too. They say, also, to watch that the track tension doesn`t get too much slack, as this will contribute to throwing a track in tight turns .They probably put wheels in to help, as the steel cleat tracks must be very heavy

[motto]

That all fits the picture Bob. I was going to suggest that this wasn't a track change but some other form of maintenance. There are no new tracks in sight and the close proximity of the other tanks would cramp the operation as the replacement track would need to be laid out and the tank towed off the old onto the new. I don't know any other way to do it in the field.

David M

[Richard Coutts-Smith]

Y'all forgot about the CMP up the back.
Nice "In The Background" photo.
Rich.

Just noticed it appears to have a mechanic crouching at the bumper, so that narrows it down to a Ford.......

[motto]

In answer to your question about the possibility of requiring major adjustment after new track has worked a bit David, I don't believe so. From what I know of Sherman track the links or blocks were articulated using pins set in rubber, there was nothing to wear as the relative movement was allowed for by the flexing of the rubber.
The really clever part is that the links or blocks are set at a slight angle to their neighbours so as the track wants to roll itself up. To flatten it out flexes the rubber in one direction while going around a sprocket or return roller flexes it in the opposite direction from its null position. It's what is referred to as a 'live' track.
That's the track that I'm familiar with anyhow. I expect Sherman track all worked on the same principle but may be wrong about that. This type of linkage is still in use today on the M113 track and no doubt others.

David

[David Herbert]

Refering primarily to Bob's post (no.25), I think that he has come up with the most credible explanation of what is going on with the Sherman track in post 16. Alternatively it could just be crew training or even sadistic punishment!

Sherman tracks do not have a break in period of great stretching in the way that carrier track does. When a track is split or replaced, the end connector securing wedges MUST be checked for tightness several times once the tank is driven. They do not work loose but it is very easy to think that they have been properly installed when they haven't. Also if a new track has been fitted it will need re tightening at least once as the rubber bushes get used to being under tension. Once bedded in though it will not need the continuous tightening and removing links that dry pin tracks need. In fact you should never take links out of any 'live' track to maintain tension.

As Bob said, there are sugestions in some manuals about reversing the end connectors or whole tracks to even out wear on the part of the end connectors that the sprocket teeth drive. Apart from being incredibly hard work, it is more a theoretical benefit as they actually do not wear that fast and do wear on both drive and non drive faces, which is not really what you would expect. Depending on ground conditions the end connectors last much longer than most types of link and were expected to be reused when building up replacement tracks.

Actually the only type of Sherman track that could correctly be turned end for end was the flat rubber link type. The cast steel design in the photo in question is installed the correct way, with the larger single bar leading the two smaller bars on each link. Obviously it will work back to front but that is how it is designed to be fitted.

Another small point is that a Sherman tow cable is far too thick to wrap around the sprocket hub and use as a winch to pull the track on. If you tried it the cable would be a real pain to use and would never want to go straight again!

Motto is quite right in his observations about 'live' track, it can be single pin (like the original M113 track) or double pin with end connectors (like Sherman and most modern tanks) but the rubber bushes are usually made so that there is a curve to the track naturally. That way it actually pushes down on the ground between the road wheels and does not have to flex so much around the sprocket and idler. It is also much harder to work with as it has its own idea what it wants to do.

Of course the Canadian dry pin track that was used by them on Grizzlies and Sextons is the exception to all other Sherman track but it was designed to be robust and easy to maintain as the primary requirements (there is a very full account of its development in CWM).

Hope this is of interest

David

[Bob Cohoon]

Here are a couple of photos from the 1942 manual I will try and attach. They mention the puller is a Simplex , a well known manufacturer ,and they used chain to adapt to the track ends