18/25 pounder gun mark1 on mk5 carr

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

okay this is second one for the day as realized I need parts here as well the18pdr was made in various marks on of the final being the mk5 split carridge which increased elevation on other marks considerably when the BEF began upgrading in 1938 only 70 mk2 breach rings were made and many of the latest models of 18pdr were upgraded to 25pdr or as it was initially called 3.45'' gun which is observed on early shell cases . The commonest converted guns with new barrel liners fitted were mk3/4 18pdr with classic howitzer trail and mk5 with modern split trail . Australia got a few of each but numbers are uncertain and Gower had no definitive numbers I have seen two mk4 conversions here in rough shape and this mk5 and remians of another .

The mk 5 was apparently issued to 2/7th field regt and may have been use d on the attack on Bardia Gower claims no local issuance and AWM told the felllow who found this gun they dont exist in Australia ahowing a lack of accurate records ,

This gun was sold for scrap before wars end with demolition work on it the barrel and recoil both had charges placed on it I assume training demolition techs when obscolete in 43-44 era , My gun was taken to a farm and stripped for the trails to use as a super phospate spreader and later scrapped when time wore its down . The screap man recovered the chasis and other parts that were taken off still lying around the shed and the fellow i Got it off started putting it back together until i bought it off him .The barrel currenlty fitted is a 18pdr mk4 iv barrel as the 25pounder one was badly damaged and will be rebuilt and externally they are identical

I am after following parts should anyone find them the arc on right side of gun for ranging not unlike a smaller version of a 5.5" mine is present but badly corroded from years in dirt other side of gun needs the sight mount and bar with cup and also needed is the front broze recoil cap . The gun displays well as it is but thats no reason not to make it better as well the lower shield is a copy I do have original fittings and may do this up some more if i cant soure a real one enjoy the shots of this rare beasty I believe their is a mk5 18pdr in NZ anyone know of any other mk5's?
shots of gun and orignal breach ring attached ,breach rings were upgraded with extra stop on them to 18pdr ones and were restamped as such and with a P for pneumatic tyres . Most BEF ones were lost in France and some were re-used by the Germans also some use of them in North Africa was made as stop gap anti tank guns as well

finally i was so keen to pick this one up i was caught speeding with a trailer on and lost 3 points on my licence :-( well at least it gave more revenue to our needy government if we look on the bright side :-)

[rnixartillery]

Rod

Were these Guns converted from spokes to Rubber at some point,doesn't look like a Martin-Parry conversion.


Rob.........................rnixartillery.

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

Rob most were conversions but i suspect many were remanafactured when they put in new barrel liners for 3.45"

regards
Rod

[mudeng]

Some nice shots of a rare gun.
I believe there is one in Eire, Southern Ireland. Some of these guns were used by the irish Army, but I'm sure someone out there has more details.

if youre interested, I have some drawings from the Firepower Museum at Woolwich, they have quite a bit of info on this Mk of gun.

There was no Martin Parry conversion for this gun, they were all rubber tyred, but the suspension was similar to the gun fitted with the box trail. I have details of this too.

From what I have read, both types were trialed by the RA, and the box trail accepted for service. Some (?) split trail types entered service, and I believe were used by the Commonwealth forces, mostly in Eritrea and somaliland (I think). I have bee researching BEF equipment for some time, and I have never seen a split trail gun in service with the BEF. I have loads of photos of the box trail gun, two show fields full of captured guns. Photos of a split trail in service are very rare, so far I have seen only two.

There are some pre-war photos of the split trail gun being towed by the Morris CDF "toast-rack" FAT.

George.

[mudeng]

just remembered wher I filed the info, and include some photos of the Irish Gun, the one "in service" photo I have of the split trail gun, and a spoked wheel, box trail version of the 18-25pdr.
I made a 1/35 scale model of the MkIV P, and if its any help, a copy of the sight from the manual.

George.

[mudeng]

Exceeded the limit on the last post, here are the remaining details.

George.

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

well the box trail is mk4 and are far more common than mk5 the split trail model I have seen shots of them but not clear ,commnly used in north africa etc and thnk one of forties books has a shot of the trail of one in action i recognized . also there is a desert period war update arond 1942 that has some movie footage of them and there is another shot of NZ troops with them I am aware of but as you say they are not common
In a german weapons manual on captured enemy weapos they list and photograph a mk5 captuered off BEf as i said they did not see as common issuance of the mk4 and were rapidly replaced by production of mk2 standard 25pdr
Your shots are of great interest and love to see more of the one in Eire could you email me the shots and also any contact details

From your shots I see they have a lot of what i am missing on mine and they seem to be missing some firing linkage
great stuff thank you
regards
Rod

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

George
The shot of the row of mk5 is interesting as i said before they were basically stunted in production by the mk2 coming into fulll production ie receivers started in 1938 and trails 1940 for mk2. i have a 1938 dated mk 2 and I beleive a wartime dated one i swapped to Budge is now on display in Rotunda.

Anyway if you look closely at the line there is another gun in back groud rows . I believe i have seen the same shot from other end where its mk2 guns and to make it look like they had more they have padded out the line with mk l on carridge mk5

regards
rod

[Bob McNeill]

Can anyone recall what happened to the one from rutherglen in Vic. I believe Glen Stone had one around 98 or 99 as R B Mc took one look and mentioned that some fittings were missing and what they were. Most of our rubber wheels seem to be Inter H commercial.

[mudeng]

Yes I believe tuere were some 18pdrs mixed with the 25pdr conversions.
There seems to be some confusion, as some references qoute 18/25pdr.
Most of the 18pdrs I have photos of show the Martin Parry conversion to pneumatic tyres.
If you have a reference or better still a photo of a split trail gun captured in France, I would love to see it. I know they were in service with the RA and some Territorial units.

The "Irish" split trail, was photographed at Curragh military exhibition, I downloaded it from a web site that I cannot recall, and I have been trying to track down the owner without luck. Hoefully someone out there will know who owns it.

Send me an email and I will get back to you, though I only have a couple mre shots, but they might be of use.

I photographed and measured the box trail version at Woolwich, the Rotunda I believe has other guns, but is not open to the public as far as I know.
I thought all of those exhibits were now at Woolwich, Firepower Museum.
I noticed that the "suspension" did not seem original, as the rear section should have rubber gaiters. The box trail version had limited traverse, and the carriage could "rotate" about the axletree. The gun itself has an inner shield, that moved with the carriage, the outer shield and axletree remained stationary. (clear as mud).

One interesting thing though, the museum did have the drawings of the experimental 4 wheel version. These drawings were copies of the blueprints, and very well detailed.

As I said guys, email me george.dfs@virgin.net if I can be of help.

Cheers.
George.

[lynx42]

Bob,
The one Rod has is Glen Stones's gun. He purchased it from Glen before Glen moved to Swan Reach.

I was a bit miffed that it wasn't offered to me as I had a bit to do with it's restoration.

Regards Rick.

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

well I had no issues with glen and was chasing it hard for a few years and he never mentined you Rick ,
One day he scrapped one of the barrels and i had the luck of being in the same scrap yard on the same day and recovered it . He had already offered it to another collector before i got it who refused it as it was not workng !!!! and could not easily be made so lol be interested to know what you helped on as I have had to replace a lot of bits with original parts ie brake linkage etc

do you have any more of the 100lb 5.5" rounds
regards
rod

glen never mentioned you at all and when i got it he had assembled it roughly and blasted and painted it and much was loose in tins some still is as i source orignal parts where a few after it guess i was lucky

[Rod Bellars (RIP)]

yes its the same gun with a few more bits added and restored and wheels are correct pattern 900x16
regards
rod

[Keith Brooker]

These could be 18Pdrs and 18/25Pdrs captured in 1940 And a photo from a neg of one pre war.
Original photos from my collection.

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks Keith, a couple of interesting images.

I know the common way to reference the 25-pdr ordnance on the 18-pdr carriage is '18/25-pdr', but as can be seen in official references, the gun's short reference is actually a '25/18-pdr'. As with all British 'long format' nomenclature, the ordnance is listed first, the carriage second.

Mike

[Mike Cecil]

Is Glen Stones still with us?



Mike

[lynx42]

Yes, he is as far as I know, Mike. He lives in Benalla. My ex goes to visit them now and then.
Cheers Rick

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks Rick.



Mike