Books photos about executed POWS June 1944

Originally posted by DaveCox
Glad you got it Carman,

I'm glad I got it too, but call me flakey, it's more important to me that someone knowing about my Uncle stood there for me, my Uncle's family member, so that "family was there to visit...in strong spirit thru someone else" These men, all of them, aresofar from home. Don't know whay that should matter to me, but it always has. I feel good. And know my family members, most of them, don'tappreciate or care like I do, and you folks certainly fully appreciate the meaningfulness, which is why I shared the news in here.

Have to go...thanks again Dave...carman/

[Mark W. Tonner]

Final Resting Place of Rifleman E. Smith, The Royal Winnipeg Rifles:

Thank you so much MARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This help from you means a lot to me yet again... I've something tobe grateful for in you, all your kind deeds and generosity with your infoand help... xxx

GEOFF..... thank you for the offer... I sent the photo to Mark and he adapted the size to upload in here (I tried and couldn't!)

This photo came from an "Old Soldier" who volunteers for the Maple Leaf Legacy. He emailed me today, from out of the blue, and told me, today, he had photos, and sent them to me. Please be sure to visit their site http://www.mapleleaflegacy.ca which is the SAME link that Dave noted in this thread. This project deserves every support it can get, and we all know why

When I cracked open the image of my Uncles Headstone at Beny Sur Mer... I was just so blown away and emotional.

I'm amazed.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Karman... it's even better when you see it face-to-face. I hope you can arrange to attend Normandy next year... you will never forget it. These cemeteries are ... holy places. Not in a religious sense, but because of the spirits of the men contained within. Listen closely when you're there... they speak to you... and you have to talk to them in return. They know you're there.

Carman I see you are on line right now. You may want to visit the Canadian Virtual Memorial and upload the picture of your uncles headstone to the site.

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Karman... it's even better when you see it face-to-face. I hope you can arrange to attend Normandy next year... you will never forget it. These cemeteries are ... holy places. Not in a religious sense, but because of the spirits of the men contained within. Listen closely when you're there... they speak to you... and you have to talk to them in return. They know you're there.

GEOFF.... to be there, in person, standing face-to-face. God. What a dream. My little disability sure wouldn't get me talking there with Uncle Eddie...and the other's. BUT... life really does present amazing opportunities and windfalls. Yah never know.

What you say about "Listen" "Speak" Yes Geoff ... I'm ultra sensitive to a lot. Maybe it's all the native...and perhaps Scotish-faeries in me? I do know, without a doubt, that bodies may die, but Spirits? NEVER

Those places where our men and women lay... I just know, are SO...POWERFUL.

I get body rushes just placing myself there in my imagination.

Karmen...Eddie's Darlin' Neice

Originally posted by Art Johnson
Carman I see you are on line right now. You may want to visit the Canadian Virtual Memorial and upload the picture of your uncles headstone to the site.

ART... HI!!!! What an EXCELLENT idea!!! I hadn'r thought that far ahead yet. I still haven't recovered from the shock of my own two eyes looking at the photoed headstone!!! Rest assured ... I'll be sharing this with the Veterans Affairs site... Thanks big time! xxx Carman (Nice to say Hi too! I hope all is well with you and Catherine)

I just submitted the photo to the Virtual Memorial site They have to review the submission before posting it.

I'll be darned! (Thanks for the "push" Art)

[DaveCox]

Hi Carman,

It's great to see that you actually acheived one goal and got the picture. When I saw it I too got a shiver down my spine - but then I've got Highland blood too, my grandmother was supposed to have been "fey"; and we also beleive that the spirit does not die just because the physical body has.

I know what it means to you because we have managed to help others the same way, although none of my own ancestors (at least none that we know of) died in battle since 1746!

The Maple Leaf Legacy is a fantastic project, and deserves support - I wish we had something similar but it's not politically correct here at the moment to remember that we fought against our european neighbours!

Good luck to you - Remember With Pride

Thanks for everything you just wrote Dave. You said a lot of interesting things...especially about not believing the spirit dies when the body does.

Many who have had a major trauma know all about out-of-body experiences, near death experiences, and a lot of other "psychic-type" experiences, know in no uncertain terms that although the spirit certainly "lives" in the body and animates it, it doesn't live "because" of the body ... I think a lot of you soldiers, young and old, know exactly waht I'm talking about through direct experience?

The fear and horror of what these men must have felt in the face of their deaths, I feel sure, gave way, when needed, to an amazing spirit/spiritual release. I'm not talking endorphins... I'm talking spirit. Yah can't kill energy, which is what spirit is in my opinion, ...Thats my story and I'm stickin' to it!

Now, some of you folks may be thinking I'm really crazy hey? Ah well ... I love yer "energy" anywise

A question here... how can it be politically incorrect to honour fallen soldiers by photo-documenting the individual human beings? I can probably simply make an educated guess, but I'd like to hear responses to this question???

By the way... PROUD I "am" of ALL of these soldiers. I LOVE seeing the cared for gravesites and seeing caring in action through people and places like in here and around the world.

My own family is learning what their relative Edward Smith REALLY did and what his actions and sacrifices did for them... a little at a time, through me, as I learn from all of you and others. When they "get" what their Uncle did, then they'll get what all the soldiers did, for them.

I still cringe when I remember my sister asking me..."Why do YOU care??? He's dead. You never even met him." When I can come back at her with answers then she'll know that she cares too. So many of the freedoms she enjoys, she wouldn't be enjoying if people hadn't fought and sacrificed for them to exist. Maybe Uncle Eddie can come back and kick her ass and wake her up? (cool!!!!)

As far as I'm concerned, those dead soldiers ARE freedom! They knew the risks... and voluntarily did what needed to be done... for everyone.

Proud? Me? Hell yes!

[DaveCox]

Carman,

When I said it's politically incorrect, I was referring to the fact that we are being continually pushed by our "elected government" ( the quotes are because I can't find anyone that'll actually admit to voting for them!- I certainly didn't) to become part of a single-state europe, and we don't want to remind them that we ( with the help of other commonwealth troops) pulled the French out of the s**t twice in the 20th century and kicked the Germans butts at the same time.
We ( via successive governments) have surrendered our judicial system, our weight & measures and most of our economic decisions to a European parliament, and are forbidden by 'trendy left' councils even to fly St. Georges flag on his saints day for fear of causing offence, now they're trying to take away our currency. The government even now appears to be going back on it's own word and denying us a referrendum on this!. Some of these politicians have tried to scale down Rememberance Day parades and services on the grounds that the 2nd World War ended over 60 years ago and it's time that we forgave and forgot.
My answer - NEVER - we are British ( whether Scots, English, Welsh or Northern Irish)and should be proud of our heroes - we are giving away the freedom that our ancestors died to protect and this should not be allowed to happen. What Hitler failed to acheive by force our government is handing over without a fight.
Hence my signature - Commonwealth not Europe. In my opinion most of our politicians should be taken into London via Traitors Gate at the Tower of London.

Political rant over, I appologise if I've offended anyone else, I always USED to be proud of my heritage, but that'll probably soon be made a criminal offence; so I'd better keep quiet now.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by DaveCox
... I always USED to be proud of my heritage, but that'll probably soon be made a criminal offence; so I'd better keep quiet now.

Regardless of what your -- and "our" because the same's happening here -- politicians think, your heritage is an entity unto itself, fixed in time. It cannot be changed or challenged, however much the PC crowd might like to crow. You don't have to "keep quiet"... as a matter of fact, if you DO, I'll accuse you of knuckling under to these weasels...

WOW... to you both...Dave and Geoff. Thanks for everything you wrote in your last messages!!!

Too many thoughts and reactions whiz thru my mind about how things are run, and are in conflict in the world. Ridiculous ... aaaargh.... I'm heading to the Sargeants Thread now.

ART and SEAN, and EVERYONE ELSE:

I got another email from yet another person from the Maple Leaf Legacy Project http://www.mapleleaflegacy.ca offering to send me a photo of my Uncle's resting place!!! ALSO... this man mentioned that:

ALL THE INDIVIDUAL graves at Beny Sur Mer were photographed and these wonderful people will send people photos!!!!!!!

There are also a lot of amazing and beautiful views of the cemetery. I don't know what other cemeteries and gravesites they've photographed.

Hi all

I just had to tell you-all that I got to see and touchy-feely 2 Little Black Devils (cap badges ?) from WW1!!! One had the number "203" (I think I got the number right?) and was a sort of brassy or even coppery colour metal, and the other one was less "bulky" and smaller and darker (tarnished silver??? I dunno)

The owner (a neighbor) was really glad when I saw them and said "Those are the Little Black Devils..." He knew about the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, but didn't know about the nickname or the story about it, but now? He does!!! pat pat...another little light comes on! Lest we forget

Ireally want to go visit him again, this time with my bifocals! and look at all those badges, pins, buttons and medals again. Interesting WW1 and WW2 ones.

Hi all... National Archives called me today to say my Uncles service records are ready for me as soon as I can send money. 100 pages @ .40 cents per page!!!!!! Is that a pretty typical number of pages? Or more than average?

Exciting that the records are ready!!! So... may be able to tell you all some interesting things soon (probably not for a month or so yet tho... I need to scramble first) There was no mention of any photos.

Carman

Hi all.

Well... after 5 months wait my Uncles records are "enroute via snail-mail" to me.

I want to make some comments here about my "researching my family Mystery Uncle"

For starters... I have to thankyou ALL, yet again, for being here for me, for understanding, for caring, for encouraging, and for helping me (you also help Rifleman Edward Smith when you help his neice... I know he'd love that and if he were still here he'd probably love to say so and share a few drinks and stories

As a relative researching a Canadian Prisoner of War who was executed by the Hitlerjugend back in WW2... and his story has been a big "mystery" until now... I have to say that my heart goes out to other relatives of the other POWS who were executed. These men's/peoples stories were/are still mystery and hidden a lot. THIS I find out more as I go.

NOW its also very politically incorrect...and SOCIALLY incorrect, to openly search for answers, for the most part, BECAUSE of all the circumstances for so many years. I do hear that some important records are available to certain "relatives" of the fallen soldiers tho. (I'm trying to find out more about that)

I'm coming at this thing as a family member for personal reasons ... and like so many people who have lost loved ones to "whatever" and their relatives don't know who/what/where/when/how etc...well... I want answers. I want to "know everything I can"... I want ??? ... and I want "closure" for the family as my Uncle being an "Unknown Story". On that level...personal/family, thereneeds to be the peace that comes with knowing and closure, and remembering without "questions"

And... this story goes so far beyond a personal family mystery... it hits home with the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, with Canadian Military History, and International relations etc. Its so BIG in other words.

Rifleman Edward Smith's story belongs to these places too, so I hope that when I finally get all my info gathered, that I'll be able to write something appropriate and wonderful to contribute to "history". I might need "help"...

ALSO.......... I know this would be an amazingly big project to research and put together... but why the heck has no-one compiled a book of Mini-Biographies of ALL 156 Canadian Prisoners of War who were murdered in Normandy??? (Maybe because the "truths" have been secret and mysterious until recently and that it would be so difficult to route out the stories?)

Just comments.

Karmen

Rifleman Edward Smith, aka Uncle Eddie, enlisted

Dec. 26, 1941 ... the records state that he was 21, rather than the age of 25, at death, that the Veteran's Affairs site lists.

I haven't read thru all the records as yet, but they're very interesting. Also a little tough because there is even correspondence from my grandparents... like Grandpa (who called his son "Ed") wrote them a letter Oct 18, 1944. My Uncle was listed as "missing June 8, 1944" until a year later, then classified as "killed" (I'm going to go thru the records and note down dates of happenings... the dates of some things seem to be "all over the place/contradictory"...

I don't know if I read correctly but my Grandfather and great grandfather may have died in that house fire on my Uncle Ed's birthday in 1945,
which appears to be right after my grandpa received official notice that my Uncle was "killed"

So many things to go thru here. I want to see if I can find someone in town here to go over these records with me and explain some of the terms and abbreviations... I wonder if our local Legion could/would help?

(ooops...gotta go...I hear thunder!!! Something to help put out our burning BC)

A June 14, 1945 witness statement says there were 11 enemy firing machine carbines (machine guns?) fired on my uncles group on June 8/44.

Interesting to note that they finally sent a telegram in June 1945 that my uncle was "killed in action" (as opposed to the previous "missing" report sent June 25, 1944)

Its very strange that another witness reported last seeing my Uncle in JULY??????? Hmmm. But everything else places him in that field on June 8 and he was NOT one of the 5 survivors.

Meanwhile, it sounds safe to assume that all the families of the executed soldiers had a long wait before they found out any "real" info regards their "soldier". It would be so good to be able to talk with some of the the others relatives to know if this is so.

I received well over 100 pages of records that are just randomly placed together so I have to place them chrono if I can and try and make some sense of them

GOOD QUESTION:.....Can I get in trouble for "sharing" any info from my uncles records? :

Hi Everyone (nope...I haven't finished sorting/organizing the records to make sense of them ,yet, but am getting there... )

I DO want to ask:

Do any of you live in Winnipeg? or even better, SELKIRK??? I just spoke with the wife of one of the men who provided some info on my Uncles group. The man, living in Selkirk, has had a stroke and can't speak, but he let his wife know that if he saw a photo of my Uncle he might recognize him for me.

Do you have a group photo of the RWR's and would you be willing to visit this man (if he's okay with that) with the photo for him to view? I have a scanned 1943 group photo (in 4 sections) that I can't print out but CAN email to you!

I just thought this request was worth a shot in here... besides, you-all know that as soon as I ID my uncles face that I'll post his image for you all to see...

Karmen

Hi.

Are these 5 "medals" standardly issued? For what?
(Uncle Eddie received them)Any answers appreciated Thanks...Karmen

1939-45 Star
France & Germany Star >918 21/1/50
Defence Medal
War Medal
C.V.S.M. & Clasp

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Karmen,

See this page for all the definitions:

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub...inmenu/group04

These may be "standard stuff", but they mean more than ever now.

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Karmen,

See this page for all the definitions:

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub...inmenu/group04

These may be "standard stuff", but they mean more than ever now.

THANKS GEOFF Am on my way to check out that site! K

[DaveCox]

Hi Carmen,

Glad you've finally got all the 'gumph' that you've been waiting for - and I know what you're going through in trying to understand all the dates and other stuff that they put into these official records.

We tried to trace Chrissie's fathers service, and came up with some unknown facts :-
He falsified his birth certificate to join the Royal Artillery in 1916 - real age 14, was found out and sent to the Army school until he reached 16 - served post WW1.
In 1938 he changed his birth certificate again and joined the RAF - served as a photographer through all the actions in the desert until he came back to the UK in 1942 !... as a genealogist you can imagine the headaches that this caused!! We do still have some glass slides with the WD arrow in the corner with subjects such as Arab dhows on the Nile etc. & a box of water-colour paints with a map of North Africa showing all the places that he visited - Tobruk, Alexandria, LG103, El Adem - all names which feature in any history of the conflict in that theatre.

The medals
1939-45 Star
France & Germany Star >918 21/1/50
Defence Medal

were certainly 'standard' issue to any British or Commonwealth servicemen that served in that theatre of war, as these were among the 5 medals that Chrissie's dad had, the others being the Air Efficiency Award for 10 years reserve service ( he continued to serve in the reserve until the mid-1950s) and the Africa Star with rosette to show that he was there between 1939 & 1942.

Good luck in deciphering Eddie's records, I can understand how important it is to you.
Keep away from the fires - I thought of you when I saw the pics of burning BC on my tv!!!!

DAVE: Thanks! That's a good story about Chrissie's Dad... and yes... conflicting dates can sure make it hard to get thefacts right :

With my Uncle, his age/birth date are consistant through-out the records but the Veterans Affairs Graves site have his age as 25...he was actually 21 at death. Age 21 fits with where he'd fit in with his siblings. Good news to have his parents/siblings ages (but not birthdates) listed. The ages "jive" with my dates I've collected.

Uncle Eddie was the second last born of 9 kids...Mom was the youngest.

SERVICE: Rfn Edward Smith: (this form dated Aug 20, 1946)

Canada: 26-12-41 to 13-12-42
UK: 14-12-42 to 1- 6-44
NW Eur: 2- 6-44 to 8- 6-44 K/A

a "stamp"..."NO RIBBON DESPATCH"
QUESTION: What are ribbons about???????????

TELEGRAM: JUNE 25, 1944...Listed MISSING
TELEGRAM: JUNE 4, 1945...Listed KILLED IN ACTION
Edward was confirmed KILLED in JUNE 45.

RECORDS... hard to put things in chronological order and categories... one problem also being that many pages had several dates added at those different dates...pages were referred to and added to over the years. One forms last entry note was dated 1959... some pages also "Initialed" several times by different folks. I assume the records were viewed often and info and littlenotations added to by various people for various reasons, including the War Trials thing that began around Dec 10/45.

A Col. Laurin, Director of Records, for Adjutant-General wrote on FEB 20, 1946..."Information has just been received from overseas that the remains of your son, H42084 Rifleman Edward Smith, have been carefully exhumed from the original place of internment and reverently reburied in..." (Beny Sur Mer)

Sorry I'm "all over the place/disorganized in the info-sharing here

BC FIRES:.... My daughters In-Laws live in BARRIERE and that area. Don't know if they lost their home/s yet. My daughter can look from her house in Kamloops and see the burning hill there.
Went to Calgary last week and were "detoured" around fire area... riding on a motorcycle thru some places...burning eyes...ash/soot in the air, trouble breathing... scarey to see our forests so dry when lightening fires are happening... some of our worst fires are from human carelessness or on purpose... aaaaargh!

I'm typed out!!!!!!!! More later...Karmen (Oh... I guessed correctly... my Uncles eyes were blue!!!

[DaveCox]

Hey Carman,

From an ex-biker

Q: How can you tell a happy biker ?

A: By the flies on his teeth !!!!!!!!


Just hope it was decent machine, not a rice-burner!

Originally posted by DaveCox
Hey Carman,

From an ex-biker

Q: How can you tell a happy biker ?

A: By the flies on his teeth !!!!!!!!


Just hope it was decent machine, not a rice-burner!

HEY DAVE.....JAPANESE HARLEY (2 yr old VULCAN/KAWASAKI) very comfy.... yer supposed to shut your mouth when whizzing down the highway!
Met up with a guy with a HARLEY... cushy bucket seats for the lady passenger with speakers!!!!!!!!!!! OIY! Whatta toy!$$$$$$$$$

Letter Sent out June 14, 1945, to Officer i/c Records in "Acton" from war crimes Invest. Unit.
Header on page: 67/12 SS Pz Div (HJ)/2

...31 bodies found atMR 891678 - FRANCE 1/50,000 CAEN SHEET 7F/1 and buried in Cdn. Cemetery at BENY-SUR-MER

1) Attached herewith are 2 copies of a list of names of 31 bodies found at the m/n reference which was given to this unit by No.2 Cdn Graves Concentration Unit, BLA, whilst making an investigation a few weeks ago.

2) Lt-Col RAH MacKean, RCAMC is presently in NORMANDY conducting autopsies on these31 bodies as well as others not shownon this list.

3)On Col MacKean's return we will forward you the additional names together with any new information gathered.

Signed (GKM Johnson) Capt Adm Officer
1 Cdn War Crimes Investigation Unit

(My Uncles name is on that list of 31 men)

---I don't understand the abbreviations and numbers, letters with slashes etc???!! I'd like to?

[Frank Misztal]

Off the top of my head:

i/c = in charge (or in command)

SS Pz Div = Schutzstaffel Panzer Division (German tank unit)

MR 891678 = Map Reference (today, we use Grid Reference) - similar to co-ordinates.

FRANCE 1/50,000 = Map of France with a scale of 1" on the map being equal to 50,000" on the ground.

CAEN SHEET 7F/1 = a map number specific to an area (always named by the largest city, town or village on that map).

RCAMC = Royal Canadian Army Medical Corps

Hope this helps.

Frank...