Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Lang]

A great deal of effort was wasted on camouflage of vehicles and fixed establishments as there are so many "tells" that the ones actually hidden are outnumbered in nearly every occasion by those clearly identifiable.

Here is a huge scale camouflage scheme (Boeing, Douglas, Vultee and others had similar schemes). What a waste of time! Any town street directory from pre-war would have the factories clearly marked and their positions are in flashing lights with rivers, bridges and other major features as bomb aiming indicators. How do you hide a major runway system?

http://iloveww2warbirds.com/fake-roo...of-wwii-video/

Lang

[Lang]

Here are a couple of Salvo vehicles. Effectiveness of paint seems to depend on sunlight.

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Lang

Here are a couple of Salvo vehicles. Effectiveness of paint seems to depend on sunlight.

At least there is no doubt regarding the colour of the shield logo

Unless somebody wants to discuss the myriad variants of red

The second pic : The darker disruptive colour has a noticeable shine to it . Hmm

[Lang]

This is another Salvation Army vehicle with yet another scheme. First in good condition second after it ran over a mine.

[Lang]

The Salvos are a gold mine on camouflage patterns. 5 trucks, 5 different paint schemes. I presume they conformed to the current army design as they would have been maintained by army workshops.

[Lang]

And more camouflaged Salvos

[Lang]

Looks like the YMCA was at it as well. They must have been told how to paint the vehicles or it was done for them.

[Mike Kelly]

The Salvo's vehicles seem to come from a civilian background , some of the cars are rather unusual but later on they had Jeeps so maybe the real army loaned the salvo;s the Jeeps.

This is a Salvo's film , Middle East . The 1940 Chevy ute is what I have here but both mine are ex CFA and were always red , never khaki.

AWM F03438

[Lang]

The British were just as big a shambles as the Australians. Here are the RAF camouflage convoluted processes.

1941 KHAKE GREEN / disruptive patten TARMAC GREEN or LIGHT GREEN

AUG 1942 CAMOUFLAGE GREEN/ disruptive patten DARK TARMAC

DEC 1942 CAMOUFLAGE LIGHT BROWN/disruptive patten DARK

BROWN

SEP 1943 ANTI- GAS MT BROWN SPECIAL/disruptive patten BLACK Matt

SEP1944 ANTI-GAS OLIVE DRAB with out disruptive patten.

1944 Upper surfaces of vehicles used within landing area of airfields to

be painted YELLOW.

Until the end of the war an area of GAS DETECTOR PAINT irregular in

shape approximately 36 square inches to be applied to each front to be

visible by the driver

APRIL 1946 semi gloss RAF BLUE/GREY wings chassis semi gloss BLACK

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lang

The British were just as big a shambles as the Australians. Here are the RAF camouflage convoluted processes.

1941 KHAKE GREEN / disruptive patten TARMAC GREEN or LIGHT GREEN

AUG 1942 CAMOUFLAGE GREEN/ disruptive patten DARK TARMAC

DEC 1942 CAMOUFLAGE LIGHT BROWN/disruptive patten DARK

BROWN

SEP 1943 ANTI- GAS MT BROWN SPECIAL/disruptive patten BLACK Matt

SEP1944 ANTI-GAS OLIVE DRAB with out disruptive patten.

1944 Upper surfaces of vehicles used within landing area of airfields to

be painted YELLOW.

Until the end of the war an area of GAS DETECTOR PAINT irregular in

shape approximately 36 square inches to be applied to each front to be

visible by the driver

APRIL 1946 semi gloss RAF BLUE/GREY wings chassis semi gloss BLACK

Hi Lang,
A major change of colours from greens to brown was due to the use of Chromium Oxide which is one of the components of green. This product was needed urgently in other areas of war work, so brown was substituted. I understand that green paint stocks were run done, so this was not an immediate change and vehicles could be leaving the factories in either colours. By 1944 the problem was over and the British shade of Olive Drab was introduced. But looking a the official regulations I believe that re-painting was only done where necessary due to condition or overhaul. So several variants were going around at the same time.

[Tony Wheeler]

You know you've got camo on the brain when you start seeing...

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

You know you've got camo on the brain when you start seeing...

Attachment 95249

LOL! Hope that's an approved pattern!

[John Ward]

Sorry if I chime in like this but does anyone know about the order, or just the exact wording, that introduced Vehicle Buff?

One of the documents that Tony Wheeler posted a while ago (see here) makes reference to RAL/DS Circular Mech Veh Camflg., 20 Jan 1942 but I'm unsure if this was definitely the one that issued Vehicle Buff.

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

You know you've got camo on the brain when you start seeing...

Attachment 95249

Hi Tony

Your brain is pretty sharp, I've wondered if it was possible to match colors from nature in those B&W war time photos by matching to trees and other natural objects in the background.

Cheers Phil

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by John Ward

does anyone know about the order, or just the exact wording, that introduced Vehicle Buff?

Hi John,

I’m afraid I have no specific information on the colour “Vehicle Buff” or its use in vehicle camouflage, just a few passing references.

We know this colour was developed in response to Light Stone being found too light for Australian conditions, as noted by Dakin himself as early as 18 Dec 1941 in correspondence with RAAF: “Light Stone happened to be the only standard colour to approximate to my desire in the new Camouflage paints….the paint people could easily make up a light stone with just a little brown in it as indicated.”

Two months later on 20 Feb 42 he specifies for RAAF a Light Tone formulation of 50% Light Brown + 50% Light Stone, stating: “This colour can now be obtained already mixed under the name “Buff”.

It’s possible this DHS colour came to be known as “Vehicle Buff” within Army and instructions for its use in the field may have appeared in the document mentioned, ie. RAL/DS Circular Mech Veh Camflg., 20 Jan 1942.

In vehicle production however, particularly armoured workshops, the problem would be to replace the current Light Tone (typically B.S.C. 64 Portland Stone or perhaps B.S.C. 61 Light Stone) with something a shade darker in a readily available standard. One possibility would be B.S.C. 59 Middle Buff, which seems to have been a War Office standard for general service paint. This paint remains on the Australian schedule in mid-43 and is named simply “Buff”, so perhaps it was produced to MGO 101A spec for vehicles in early 42 and named “Vehicle Buff”.

As you can see it’s all highly speculative until further documentation can be shown and the colour confirmed on surviving artifacts.

Cheers,
Tony

[Tony Wheeler]

...speaking of colours named Buff, good excuse to post this fabulous B.A.L.M. paint chart circa 1936:

[Lang]

For all the instructions, dates, paint names and order numbers I still have not changed my opinion the whole thing was a dog and pony show and nothing more than a complete embuggerance to the people who owned vehicles.

The instruction on buff says to mix green with it (a teaspoon per tin, 50/50, 75/25??) then camouflage the camouflage! Not only that, but this work is only "in the mean time" until the clowns come up with a new scheme to camouflage the camouflage that is camouflaging the camouflage. I am sure the boys had better things to do with their time such as the 1942 equivalent of watching "Days of Our Lives" - listening to "Blue Hills" on the radio.

Lang

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

I've wondered if it was possible to match colors from nature in those B&W war time photos by matching to trees and other natural objects in the background.

Phil, I put your idea to the test with some photoshop work. Results are pretty conclusive I reckon, Vehicle Light Grey on both these gun tractors. This colour makes sense for South Eastern Australia where grey gums feature prominently in the landscape, particularly along the roadside where vehicles could take advantage of the cover they provide during stops. Presumably that was Young’s thinking when he developed this colour for NSW.

[Lang]

Tony

Your photos show that the Australian bush is basically grey and that was a good choice in the mix for that area.

They got it right with the Vietnam era plain olive drab. This is well over into the grey side from green. Absolutely outstanding camouflage for Australian conditions.

Lang

[Lang]

Even 70 years later they still can't get it right.

Disruptive patches on vehicles but half the total vehicle surface area of canvas has computer generated digital pattern. If CSIRO were so good it must be one or the other (or something else) for the optimal design.

Camouflage can never be anything but totally subjective as a result of human observation so it is always about opinion.

[Tony Wheeler]

Lang, what are your thoughts on the 1980's camo scheme adopted in Australia? Does this scheme have a particular name? Steve Taubert writes: “It was during the 1980’s that the Army again introduced vehicle camouflage, inititally on a trial basis on vehicles in Townsville, North Queensland. After consultation with CSIRO a new camouflage pattern was introduced not only for vehicles but uniforms as well.”

It looks quite effective in terrain where bare earth features prominently. Interestingly this 1980’s scheme trialled in North Queensland is virtually identical to First Aust Army scheme developed in Queensland 1942. This scheme was initiated by Major Cann GSO III (Cam) on 14 July 42 as a variation of Mech Circ 301 Set 2 ( Light Green H / Khaki Green J / Night Black U ): “Propose adopting colour combination 2 substituting Light Earth for Light Green as latter tends to fade.”

The new scheme was adopted 31 August 42 and paint was ordered the following day, but supply was delayed due to unsuitable DHS paint spec, which by now had proven worthless for vehicle application, and was subsequently withheld pending development of Army standard colours and paint specs.

Meanwhile in NSW the highly resourceful Major Young developed his own vehicle paint specs directly with B.A.L.M. Chief Chemist in Sydney, completely bypassing NSW Paints Control committee, which he dismissed with some contempt:

“A Paint Manufacturers Committee operates in Sydney but specifications are prepared by Standards Association. The underlying object of all these Committees appears to be to have adopted the specification or type of material which suits the members best.”

So Young got his vehicle spec paint from long time Army supplier B.A.L.M., and come November his scheme was adopted by 2 Aust Corps and is seen on their carriers in Sydney “Miles of Munitions” parade 12 Dec 42. Queensland however were not convinced, particularly Brig. Mann, Chief Engineer First Aust Army and later NG Force, who took an active interest in vehicle camouflage but unlike Dakin and Young was not sold on disruptive theory:

“It is considered that better concealment will be obtained by painting vehs to match possible backgrounds rather than by painting in a disruptive pattern. Disruption is all right in theory but does not work out in practice.”

Mann rejected the proposed Army standard camo scheme in favour of single colour Khaki Green, but was outvoted 9 to 2 in Jan 43 survey of all Commands, the other dissenter being WA L. of C. Area. This vote paved the way for adoption of SM4809 in March 43 stipulating 3 camouflage colours only, which by Oct 43 was further reduced to 2 colours only, and subsequently abandoned completely. Then 40 years later we see Major Cann's scheme reintroduced!

[Lang]

Tony

A couple of interesting things in your post.

Way back at the beginning of this thread there was discussion about the camouflage committee. I think I annoyed some people by commenting how it was made up of the manufacturers whose interest was forming a supply cartel, upping prices and controlling the paint game. The government supply people went along with it and the army said they did not care so long as the paint came from "somewhere".!

Young's thoughts are exactly on my wave length.

I also related how I was involved in selecting the new camouflage scheme for the army, flying observer groups around in circles for a couple of weeks near Oakey. We looked at APC's painted in 6 or 7 , possibly more, different colour schemes from all directions and light conditions. As I said, the Vietnam era plain green won hands down in nearly all circumstances but they had an agenda!

At that stage there was a feeling that camouflage of uniforms and vehicles looked more marshal and warlike, even giving the illusion troops dressed like that appeared as "elite" forces. Not entirely, but in part, the whole camouflage business was driven by fashion.

The new colours have a name but I can't recall it - Austcam? As your photos show and I commented, there is still no standard pattern with a mix of computer generated and colour patch designs (although the colours seem to be of a limited variety)

The great god CSIRO is not infallible and particularly on tasks requiring subjective opinion possibly less than perfect. Just like Dakin they are made up from scientists most of whom do not have a practical bone in their body or any experience of actually using their product in the field. They are a great organisation but I think they could have been equaled or bettered by a group actually experienced in the subject. How come of the 190 armies in the world not two of them have the same camouflage schemes!


Lang

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Lang

Back in the 80s our local MV club played games with a squadron of Air National Guard A10s. One the guys in the club worked for or was a part of the Unit. When we would have Club events out in Western Massachusetts we would go out and play on the fire roads in the woods with a convoy of 10-20 military vehicles. The pilots would be given the general area and when we would be in the woods. We were trail riding in an area where the A-10s were cleared for low level flight, ie unpopulated. They were also given maps of all the woods roads we might be playing on. Solid overhead tree cover makes OD MVs hard to spot. At the time I don't think any of the MVs in the club were camouflaged.

The only times they found us was once on the highway heading for the woods and once when we were all parked in a field. They did find us in the woods once when they caught us in an area that had been logged. We ould hear them circling tryin to find us. We knew when they found us as they would make low level passes over us in simulated attack runs. The latter did cause a problem as the time they found us on the field, field was outside their training area on the edge of a town. We played this game half a dozen times. Will have to dig out the photos. Did get to meet some of the piolets when we displayed our trucks at an airshow on their base.

Apparently the squadron preffered plying with us to playing the same game with actual Guard Units as we didn't give them a hard time if they did find us.

Cheers Phil

[Lang]

Phil

The A10 is the only aircraft of the modern era I wish I could have flown!

Tony

We got embroiled in the camouflage business when the army took the leap to repaint. The army aircraft, supposedly to be hidden in the same area as army vehicles had a different scheme - why!!!

The first photo is at Nui Dat 1971 and shows the Vietnam scheme on the Porters. This is not the same colour, much darker, as the same period vehicle scheme. RAAF Caribous and Iroquois had the same dark aircraft green.

The second is the current style on a Bushmaster.

The third photo is of the 60/70 period scheme. All Vietnam aircraft had this colour. You can see the floor hatch is open and the sight for the Wild RC10 camera doing mapping photography up to 25,000 feet (damn cold at that height with the door open)

The fourth is at Oakey with all new clothes on the Nomads, Porters and Blackhawks. As you can see, each aircraft has the same colours but a different pattern. If it was truely scientific the patterns would be the same!

The fifth is having fun flying under Sydney Harbour Bridge in formation. The shark teeth are an invention of 173 General Support Squadron. The d---heads yelled about it being unauthorised but the General liked it so it stayed.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Lang

The fifth is having fun ..... The shark teeth are an invention of 173 General Support Squadron. The d---heads yelled about it being unauthorised but the General liked it so it stayed.

Ahh, boys will be boys. There's a difference between accurately following the approved stencil pattern and, well, using "Artistic Licence".

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Lang

The new colours have a name but I can't recall it - Austcam? As your photos show and I commented, there is still no standard pattern with a mix of computer generated and colour patch designs (although the colours seem to be of a limited variety)

Lang

There is a standard pattern published for 4x4 LR, 6x6 LR, Mog, Mack, etc, but it is not recommended to be slavishly replicated on each vehicle, it is more a guideline. Minor variations from vehicle are seen to be beneficial in contributing to disruption.

The scheme, or at least the colours involved does seem to work well in Australian environments ranging from Cultana Range or Woomera in SA, up to Cairns and Mossman in FNQ.

[Lang]

Tony

What I was pointing out was the computer generated tarp patterns and the vehicle patch patterns. Entirely different concept and not related.

not recommended to be slavishly replicated on each vehicle,might upset some of our people who think orders are orders?

Lang

[Tony Smith]

And there are two variations to the Auscam Scheme for local conditions.

The Pilbara scheme is used in the Iron Ore country of northern WA and uses the standard pattern, but replaces the Black with Pilbara Red.

The other scheme is the Desert scheme used overseas in the Sandpit, and again replaces the Black with Light Tan.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Lang

Tony

What I was pointing out was the computer generated tarp patterns and the vehicle patch patterns. Entirely different concept and not related.

Lang

I think that might be more supplier related.

The original canvas pattern, Hexcam, was developed by the boffins at CSIRO and Bradmill to be used with the Auscam camo in the 80's. This canvas was used on LR canopies and also on the Mogs. In the Mid-90's a new vinyl/rubberised material with IRR properties was supplied by Barracuda from Europe for use on the Bushranger 6x6 LRs, and also as Mog canopies. As was their practice, a digital pattern was used, but with colours that "were close to" the Auscam colours.

Now the wheel has turned again, with the new Merc G-Wagens going back to Canvas, but with yet another new pattern designed and copyrighted by Defence!

[Lang]

And the band played on!