The MV Hobby, De-Mob

[chris vickery]

Quite recently I got into an interesting conversation with a long time MV collector and restorer regarding the future of the MV hobby.
He brought up an interesting point, the fact that none of us are getting any younger, and that in itself poses questions as to the feasibility and future of our Hobby.
I would be interested in a Poll, to figure out the average age of MV enthusiasts;
I would hazard a guess to say the median age is probably near 60 for most guys. I myself represent one of a few in the "younger crowd" and I am 43. Scary isn't it? I do not see too many guys younger than myself following in the hobby.
This also brings to question the value of our vehicles and collections of junk;
On one hand, these vehicles are getting older and scarcer to find as projects. The tendency is to think "valuable" as time marches on...
On the other hand, there will come a time when the market will see a flood of vehicles coming out of Estates with less and less buyers to be found.
This would lead one to believe that there will be a peak in value followed by a rapid decline in value. Museums have already got what they want and with less and less to spend and budgets trimmed yearly, I do not see this as the answer.
Don't believe me regarding these scenarios? The same has happened traditionally with the vintage car market. While today, 1960's muscle is in its heyday, give it 20 years. Todays kids don't want grandpas hand-me-downs.
There was a time in recent history when Model T Fords and 1920s and 30s cars were quite rare and collectable. Check out Old Autos anytime to get a reality check... Most of these cars today are now a steal, the prices so low a fellow would be nuts to even try to restore one- it's cheaper to purchase one already done for pennies on the dollar.
I can forsee the decline of collecting in the next 10 to 20 years, happy for me that I shall be one of the few still around (hopefully) to enjoy many more years of economical times.
Thoughts?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

PS, Hanno, can we start a Poll on ages???

There should be one at the top of this page after I post this reply.

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Todays kids don't want grandpas hand-me-downs.
There was a time in recent history when Model T Fords and 1920s and 30s cars were quite rare and collectable. Check out Old Autos anytime to get a reality check...

Interestingly, my local Ford museum, housing the world's largest collection of Ford vehicles - no less than 214! - is auctioning 47 pre-war Fords and veteran and vintage vehicles to make the collection "younger". From the auctioneers site: "The Ford vehicles are being auctioned because the Ford Museum always wants to ensure that its range can be recognized by visitors. The decision was, therefore, taken to exchange the pre-war Fords for vintage vehicles that are not as old."

Hanno

[maple_leaf_eh]

I follow the hobby and agree that there are probably three motivators.

First is for buyers who can now afford toys, to find whatever they enjoyed in their youth. My Jeeps for instance, are models I drove in the reserves in my teens.

Second are machinery students, who enjoy (?) the challenge of keeping old iron running. The Hammond Barn crowd have WWII vehicles under restoration, and they work on something to learn how it was built and can be brought back to life. The crazier ones have heavy, stinky, expensive and awkward vehicles like 5-ton trucks, wreckers, tracked and big wheeled vehicles.

Third, and far less common IMHO, are collector/builder/investors. There are some of us who see money in everything, and work on projects to resell. (Do they ever get their money back?) Yes, there are investers who want an MB, an M4, a Universal Carrier, or a Ferret, but how many of them are walking around lopsided because of their fat wallets?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

From the auctioneers site: "The Ford vehicles are being auctioned because the Ford Museum always wants to ensure that its range can be recognized by visitors. The decision was, therefore, taken to exchange the pre-war Fords for vintage vehicles that are not as old."

Well that fits as it was Henry Ford who was quoted as saying "History is bunkum" !

[chris vickery]

Hanno, your reply with the indication of a museum making the collection "younger" and "recognizable" is exactly what I am alluding to;
It seems that most collectables, whatever they are, revolve around the generation that most appreciates and can afford them. Typically this is the age group which hovers between 40 and 60, those whos children are grown and gone, have stability and have the financial freedom to pursue the hobby.
In our market for example, it is not quite the same as collecting match book covers or coins. Heavy machinery which was made for young man's sport becomes more and more of a challenge even to the most able bodied among us.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

I have read a number of studies about the antique car hobby over the last few years and yes the average age of collectors is getting older. I'll try and find my notes on the studies and post the links.

The MV club I belong to is very concerned about this issue and has been for a number of years the core of the club are now all my age about 65. Very recently though we started to see an influx of younger late 20s and mid 30s some ten in the last year which we are seeing as being a really good thing.

Cheers Phil

[Lynn Eades]

Chris, Phil etc. The "baby boomers", that "bubble" in the population, the "pig in the python" The people born between 1946 and 1964 are the bulge in the post war population that determines most trends in our lives from real estate prices to old vehicle prices.
What you guys are saying is pretty much right.
When I was at high school with no $ (still the same) It was Twin cam Escorts or Mini Cooper S's (English) Valiant Chargers or GT Falcons (Australia) or Mustangs, Corvettes and Camaros (top spec ones) (State side) You might have hankered something different from that era,(Ferarri Dinos, Lancia Stratos, Alpine Renaults, or what ever, but what ever it was as we grew older and locked the kids out, we now have a spare $ to spend on the dreams of our youth. How much would you pay for any of those cars now? There is more demand for, than there are of those vehicles, so they are almost un procurable unless you made lots of money.
My son -in-law likes the early Japanese cars (these kids are sick!)The military vehicle thing is the same for us.
Yes Chris I agree the WWII M.Vs. appeal to mostly older people, and yes there are a smaller group coming through who will chase them. This is due mostly to the lower birth rate. However there are always those few who have picked up the dream from their father, uncle, or neighbour. (Some really sick ones are into Landrovers!)
I was pleased to meet a few young guys and see many others at War and Peace in the U.K. recently who have, or are developing the disease.
I don't think the majority of people get into this for the money (a few do) because it is a "love" or "passion" (for you hard arses that can't use the L word)
I think the hobby is healthy enough.
As we fall off the perch and our patient and long suffering wives flog our stuff off for peanuts, younger blokes will snap it up. (her words, not mine) At which point they become the custodian, most of who will not look after our cherished treasures as well, know as much about them, or drive them as well as we did (in our humble opinions) I won't care because I will be busy trying to put out the fire!

[rob love]

My own personal belief is that some vehicles are timeless, like the Jeeps, while the demand for more unique stuff like our CMPs will fade as time goes on. How many young guys even own a timing light these days, or enjoy the purr of a flathead V8?

My own club seems to lose about 2 or 3 old members for every new member that gets involved in the hobby. Mind you, it could well be that in today's world of internet, the necessity of joining a club is not as great as in the past.

Anyway, time to go vote in the poll and see where I stand in the rankings.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

I just came back today from an end of the season cruise day, 123 vehicles attending I took my HUP along with lots of display information about the history of the truck in particular its restoration and CMPs in general. Drew a continual stream of people over the 5 hours I was there. Some casual interest people and some read every page of information I had posted.

So there is hope.

Cheers Phil

[lynx42]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Interestingly, my local Ford museum, housing the world's largest collection of Ford vehicles - no less than 214! - is auctioning 47 pre-war Fords and veteran and vintage vehicles to make the collection "younger". From the auctioneers site: "The Ford vehicles are being auctioned because the Ford Museum always wants to ensure that its range can be recognized by visitors. The decision was, therefore, taken to exchange the pre-war Fords for vintage vehicles that are not as old."

Hanno

Hi Hanno and others.

Hanno, I just went through the whole 48 vehicles currently under auction and there are only 5 with bid so far. Some pretty cheap ones available too.

I have to agree with everyone. I am the president of our local vintage/classic car club (and have been for far too long), The average age is now in the over 60's and there is not the same interest in the older cars as there was 15-20 years ago. The public love the older cars, but now days do not have the knowledge or space to restore a vehicle.

My father said many years ago the the interest in the hobby will come from those people who remember their first car or the cars that were in the news when they were young. That is why there is so much interest in the super cars of yesterday today.

We are all just custodians and we must eventually pass on to the next generation the vehicles we have saved. Of course the problem there is the lack of knowledge within todays youth. Most do not know which end of a screwdriver to use. Then there is the family time, mortgage, school fees etc which are so much higher than when we started, let alone the lack of availability of parts at a reasonable cost.

We have to just keep showing our vehicles and encouraging every person who shows a little interest in our hobby.

Regards Rick.

[chris vickery]

Well said Rick.
The truth of the matter these days is that many of this generation have grown up watching TV, playing Xbox video games or generally letting their minds rot.
I believe that many of us grew up with knowledge because it was gained by exposure- if you worked on a farm, pumped gas at the local service garage or helped Dad by holding the flashlight while he was fixing something. At least thats the way I grew up. We played outside and created our own fun. We built forts and go-carts from whatever junk we could scrounge. When we were older it was old lawnmowers and field buggy cars cobbled together from junkyard scraps. We modified our bicycles or built what we could so we could HAVE a bicycle. No sense of entitlement was given.
Kids today don't want things unless they are cool, come in a fancy box or are endorsed by some idiot actor or sports celebrety. God forbid you try and pass off a hand me down or used item.
Little wonder why it is difficult to attract youth...

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi all,

I'm 31. I started with my first jeep at 19, then a second at 20 and so on.

I guess I'm different in my interest though as my parents both met in the Sydney based Vintage Motor Club (celebrating its 60th anniversary just last week!). Dad with a 1928 Oldsmobile, Mum a 1930 straight 8 Nash, both cars still in the family and regularly rallied (well the Nash is getting an engine rebuild at be moment!). I first cottoned onto the idea of the lack of young people in clubs in my early teens- despite the VMC getting alot of cars on rallies and we went to a lot of rallies around NSW/the east coast too, my younger brother and I were often the youngest or only young ones on the rally!

Regardless, I have 'won'/been awarded youngest driver at the major rallies we attend each Easter for far too long. The last time I got it (2012) I stood up and asked the room (300 people much much my senior) how many had a child or even better grandchild over 16. Alot of hands went up. I then said that everyone with their hand up needs to let those kids drive their cars that at then 30, I was tired of getting and didn't want to be given youngest driver any more!

I think the fact of the matter is alot of kids have alot more on their mind. There is so much on offer to attract them in every direction and probably by the time they get to a point they might be able to show an interest (if not inspired by their parents/family/friends) alot are trying to afford a house of family and an old car, whatever the age is not high on the list or, for manyof the vehicles we have, an affordable option in todays market prices- 15-30k jeeps dosnt help them much! I'm just lucky that I was able to buy a jeep cheap enough and had parents with the space and encouragement to help me restore it. I think when prices drop which they will (look at the low true 1919-1930 vintage car prices in the 90's opposed to the higher prices of the 80's) as others have said, that will help more enter the hobby.

Not an easy one to solve and I also think we'll just need continued and varying approaches. The days of clubs (which cater for our vehicles and older) just sitting back and young members approaching the with or looking to buy a car are long gone I'd say. Plus, the old idea (maybe already eluded to above) that 'kids' of today will be interested in their parents era of cars doesn't help. All that said there are young guys and girls moving through the clubs I see around NSW- take a look at the Corowa swim in- there is an increasing younger group of people there! So, young people are getting involved, just not in the numbers many of us would like to see.

Curiously though, when I see pictures of rallies in Europe (admittedly MV ones) there are ALOT of young guys and girls driving vehicles, so there is an interest there somewhere. I wonder what European clubs or cultures have done which helps promote his, or am I just seeing a small group of people over and over relative to the technology I am viewing them on?

Cheers,
Ian.

[Gordon Yeo]

I have been to celebrations in Holland in 1995 as a spectator and as a participant in 2010. I think the reason there are young people interested in military vehicles is because they are immersed in the history of WW2. They also have such a huge concentration of running vehicles in such a small geographic area. Europe lived the privations of war and celebrated freedom. Canada went from economic depression to an economy of prosperity that provided jobs and demand for every commodity we could produce. Big difference between experiences.

[Robert Bergeron]

Friends,

Historical military vehicles and old cars are not the same.

This summer i paraded WW2 and Korean war veterans before the crowd at our local airshow at the airport in a WW2 GPW and a F-15A Cmp . A Corvette would not of made the grade...

What a great reception the Vets got !

Yesterday , i brought the 1944 GPW to a WW2 veteran's funeral. His 5 sons and one daughter were all there around me as if i was their father's long lost buddy he had last seen in Antwerp ! They were so thankfull i felt a little self conscious for the attention i got.

I bring at least two trucks to the local Cenotaph for Remembrance day . I have had veterans drive them in convoy for old times sake. They really, really appreciate .

Our hobby is alive and well, we just have to outreach and get involved with and in the community .

The point is , we are custodians of historic military artefacts not just collectible old sport cars. Let's show them to the kids and folks so they learn their history.

My two cents.

Bob

[hrpearce]

Since this poll started several responders have moved up an age group making it not entirely accurate today.
As the numbers change it appears the age of entry into this forum is around 41 +.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron

...
I bring at least two trucks to the local Cenotaph for Remembrance day . I have had veterans drive them in convoy for old times sake. They really, really appreciate .

Our hobby is alive and well, we just have to outreach and get involved with and in the community .

...

I do something similar at my Legion Branch's parades. The vets get to drive/ride while I march.

Terry

[Jon Bradshaw]

I just saw this post while looking thru this area of the forum. I have never explored this part and have been on here for years. I am 41 and have been getting into this hobby for about 10 years now. I am known to a few of you out there and meet a few as I travel across the country each summer as the "MLU express". As the older gentlemen sell off the collections I am confidant that the younger people will buy the vehicles that are restored. The old basket cases in the back 40 are the ones that will end up going for scrap. Many of the younger generation (myself included) don't have the skills of working on engines because the cars we have now are mostly computer and don't require fixing as much as part swapping. I have taught myself how to weld and tinker but still need plenty of help when it comes to the finer points of working on an engine. Carbs are a simple looking thing until they don't work right, then I don't know how to set them back correctly.
In summary I think the hobby will continue but the value will soon top out as the restored vehicles become more available, parts will be the big value. Since even restored vehicles will continue to break.

[Ed Williamson]

One large problem that is happening right now is the trend of the Governments restricting and banning Military Vehicles from being registered and used on the road. Why would someone invest time and money in something that they will not be allowed to use. Unless we see more pushback against and revercial of this trend it will have a huge impact on the hobby.

[Ed Storey]

If you think vehicle collectors have it bad in Canada, have a look at the firearms guys; they are really getting a rough time from the Government. It is basically the same tactics, government overwatch with a lot of misinformation fed to the public - all under the broadbrush name of 'safety'.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

I've been watching the videos from Hanno's post XXX Corps event: Liberation Task Force | 13-22 September 2014, Holland and it gives me heart that the MV hobby is alive and well in some locations. The sheer numbers of vehicles and people that turned out and took part says that something. As does the age range of the people taking part.

The point that we need to keep trying to attract younger people into the hobby and love of these trucks is not lost though.

Here is one survey on the economic impact of the antique car hobby that you might find interesting http://www.historicvehicle.org/~/med...18%202011.ashx

Cheers Phil

[Niels V]

Well I am one of the really odd one's out.
I am 29, and have a rather large collection of UK/Can vehicles. (Though selling a couple now)
I got interested in MV because one of my fathers friends bought a C60L Cab 13, and took the time to drag me with him to shows and told the history of the vehicles and the war, let me help out with the work on it, and then bought my own Austin Champ at age 16
I have some friends in my age groupe that have vehicles, but one problem I think many young people have is storage space, we cant afford big houses or having to rent a barn for the vehicles, when we just have begun to earn money and maybe are starting a familiy.
And most of the small, easy to handel, vehicles (jeeps etc.) are fare to expensive for us.
the only reson that I can have the vehicles I do is that my father 10 years ago bought a farm because he wanted to live in the countryside, and I therefore dont have to think about storage cost. I dont think the hobby will die out, and specially if people take the time to tell the history of the vehicles and so on when at shows I think new people can be attracted, and the MV do attracked attension when I bring my Scammell to a car show, there is a constant flow of people wanting to talk with me about it.

[Hans Mulder]

It is great be part of a community like MLU - I think the sheer amount of information readily available worldwide will grow the hobby, including younger guys like myself. We do need to balance the mortgage, wife and kids' needs, etc, but I work overtime and run little schemes to finance the carrier, the '78 Camaro, the gun and militaria collection. One day, when I'm old and fat, I'll be the one the young guys starting in the hobbies point to and say "He's got one, and its near mint - how did he ever accumulate/restore that?"

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Stuart

My vote is for Mystical, "old fart" who has three fully running restored CMP stashed in the barn. Of course I take them out and drive them every chance I get.

But I take your point, probably all of use have watched over the years as a once restore-able truck, or antique what ever, gradually is reclaimed into the earth as rust. All the while the owner turns down every inquiry from somebody that might restore it, saying I plan to restore that.

But there is some validity to idea of storing that old truck/car away in the corner of the garage until you have the time and to money to restore it. I'm working one now that has been hidden away since 1973 or so, and there are two more inline after that one. But then apparently, I like others who love CMPs are exceptions that prove the rule.

So raise your glass to the mystical old CMP restores.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

...if I get rid of all my old stuff I will deeply disappointment my friends who are waiting for me to die so they can beat the scrappy.

I think there is enough "piss" left in me to complete the cab 11 and one more.... the rest is for my ( enter appropriate number) retirement fund.

Hoping to "Tip toe through the tulips with you...."

Bob C

Cheers

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

Then we have the collectors, conservators, superheros who sweep in and rescue the restorable and the unrestorable from under the noses of the scrappers who would take CMPs and other old pieces of mechanical history to their finial resting place.

Over the years I have been the recipient of parts salvaged from trucks well past restoration, but those individual parts have helped restore another truck. These parts were saved, not by someone who planned to restore that particular truck, but rather by people who just didn't want to see the truck go to the scrapper.

But then again over the years we have seen people on MLU restore something that most of us thought was un-restorable.

Cheers Phil

[chris vickery]

Phil, kudos to the superheroes, without them many a vehicle would now be a Walmart toaster...
My key point is that in order to introduce new blood into the hobby we must make available resonably priced entry level projects for young or new enthusiasts to start with. There are also those of us enthusiastic to build one, two or many vehicles yet sourcing decent projects is very difficult.
It becomes frustrating when you look over your fellow collectors fence to a yard full of vehicles which truthfully, will never be restored by the owner.
This becomes a case of "look at me, look what I have and you don't..."
I truly believe that there is a class of enthusiasts which I shall name "collectors", those who never have and never will do anything other than to gather relics like squirrels gather nuts. On one hand, yes they are saved. On the other hand, for how long? Either the owner passes on and the family relegates it all to the scrapper anyhow or by the time enthusiastic restoration specialists come along they are too far gone.
Parking a bunch of collected vehicles in the middle of a hayfield or bushlot and you might as well send them to scrap to begin with as no level of preservation has been done to slow them from deterioration. Case in point, my neighbour with his CDLV242 Willys MB which has been sitting in the same place I saw it 10 years ago (he is going to restore it...)
I did know one collector at least who parked his stuff on gravel and oil soaked everything on a yearly basis.

[Rob Fast]

restoration passion is the international flavour that comes with it. You can log onto MLU at any time during the Canadian 24 hour day and see the Aussies waking up to this forum, followed by the Europeans and Uk. Cmp'ers. I may have my time zones a little out of whack here but you get my drift. I would like to see a little more input from the fellow restorers in South America...and the more obscure places where CMP's are still running. If only we could inspire young collectors/restorers with the global phenomena of CMP's.

[chris vickery]

I agree Rob. There is a whole gamut of cmp restorers I am sure in places that you mention. Thing is, I think many are disconnected with the internet. Even here in Canada it always suprises me to find out how many collectors are private and shy away from organized clubs or forum websites...

[David Dunlop]

I agree, it would be great to connect with some other areas of the globe we know, CMP's went during the war, but perhaps to some extent language is an issue, and I also wonder if political climates play a large roll in limiting what collectors can do in some parts of the world. Would you want to be an avid military vehicle collector in a country run my constantly changing military governments?

David