2015 at the Hammond Barn

[Bob Carriere]

Caution

We would like to share our experience in finishing the curved angle iron.

Having made a carefull copy of the curve on a thick Oak plank and carefully cut out segments which were tacked welded using a Mig welder we continually compared our new angle iron against a salvaged angle iron to insure exactly the curve and fit. The original angle iron had been confirmed accurate by comparing it to the floor of my cab 11.

So completely assured that we had the correct curve I proceeded with the permanent welding of the 12 cuts. We staggered the welds to prevent distortion and finished by carefull grinding on both side. We set the heat to fairly high to insure proper penetration of the weld and to keep the rise of the weld bead to a minimum.

When we stacked up the new angle against the old one we were off by at least 12mm or 1/2 inch. THE SUCCESSION OF HIGH HEAT WELD ACTUALLY SHRANK THE CURVE 12MM OR 1/2 IN. TIGHTER

Not to despair. We carefully hammered the inside flat of the angle iron, to stretch the metal this time, until we had a perfect copy of the old original piece. It does take a fair amount of heavy hammering but eventually, we compared the gradual changes repeatedly against the wooden form and the original piece.

We are also fortunate that our work table, which was salvaged from a Lumonix Laser research centre is built with a 5/8 thick Stainless Steel top mounted on massive square tubing legs with casters. It weight about 1600 pounds and is a beautiful anvil and very flat set up table/welding table.

If we had to do another one we would hammer our welds after each one is done while still semi hot and also to reduce the grinding and keep the shrinkage in check.

Next weekend we will be removing/cutting out the rusted angle now bolted in the jig and bolt the new angle on place for welding the left and right hand section together. The jig weights more than the back wall itself but will insure an accurate alignment of the new angle iron base plate for the wall.

Amazing what you can do with some patience.

Cheers

[Bob Carriere]

The issue here is finding the right bearings for the "transmission counter shaft"

I will try to insert my pictures as I go along within the text.... never tried it before must see if I can do it as per Hanno's instructions.

First thing to do is to find a spare tranny to play with. Had one with a missing PTO cover so it was dry as a popcorn fart and a lot easier to take apart.

First thing to remove was the back cover..... the top four bolts had already been removed due to a catastrophic failure.... the bolts from the flange on the output flange had worked loose and broke the casing and decapitated the four bolts..... that is why the tranny was a spare or parts donor.

The flange was removed first then the cover came off after removing the remaining 3 bottom bolts..... remember to save the spacer on the inside of the cover. The photo shows the rear side of the tranny. The bottom shaft is the countershaft we need to get to.

Now to insert the picture.


I think it is working.

So the tranny has to be taken apart to get to the countershaft at the vary bottom. First remove the shift cover.

No surprises.... the gears are dirty, surface grime and rust but truns freely and no missing or chewed up teeth.


The front cover of the input shaft was removed...saving the 7/17 bolts and the special retainer washers. A bit of tapping on the rear fo the output shaft with a brass hammer moves the entire shaft and will pushout the front bearing and the front of the input shaft..... pull out the input shaft and bearing.... the rear part of the shaft will remain in the tranny


....careful because inside the shaft is a small bearing shaped like a squirrel cage.... wrap up with a paper towel and put a side.

Will continue on the next posting...... obviously having an Australian problem.
( seems all my cell phone pictures are upside down)
Cheers

[Bob Carriere]

Let first try a picture of the trany with the cover removed showing the grimy but complete gear cluster.

NOTE.... Hanno when I click on the paper clip the
ATTACHMENT WINDOW does not open.....?

so back to the old way...

Ooops....something is wrong... tried the regular attachment and it does not work...for me at least...

will return when the technical difficulties have been resolved.

Boob

[RHClarke]

Hi Bob, How is the wood pile holding out? By the way, is that an Australian contract tranny?

[Bob Carriere]

OK Time for a break....maybe even a beer........

Will try again later when my nerves are less frazzelled.....


Let try again a picture of the tranny with the cover removed showing the grimmy but complete gear cluster.

...needed resizing.....arghhh!!
So far so good....not so good the limit of 5 pictures still applies no matter where they are inserted or they all become invalid.

Next the whole top shaft has to be removed using a 9 in, brass drift tap the front of the shaft where the input gear came out and the rear bearing should come off the rear of the tranny..... the whole gears assembly will slide off the shaft and can be lifted out of the tranny case.







Next we need to remove the reverse gear to access the countershaft.


The hardest part is working up the nerve to hammer out the countershaft.

Again with a sturdy brass drift pin you need to hammer out towards the front of the case the whole assembly taking care to hit on the centre of the shaft and not on the bearing.

Here is the complete counter shaft.


You can see the counter shaft OD measurements of 43.99 calls for a bearing at 44.0mm showing a bit of wear or accuracy of the caliper. The overall OD size is 72mm for the 1207 bearing.

Hyatt no longer exists as a brand but sourced NTN 207 which SHOULD fit.... will know later this week when the new bearing come in.

The problem child is the front bearing. Now replaced by NTN #NJ206. Now this bearing comes with a center race which is removed by hand and should result in a perfect fit on the front of the shaft.




The outside OD is 62MM, which is correct, the inside has to be measured from the OD of the insert which read as per the photo.

When you measure the OD of the shaft .. calls for 38mm new.



and the OD of the insert.....





you are short approx 0.45 mm.....whcih results in a very loose bearing.

I am now awaiting a NTN #NJ 206E which mayve a getter fit will know later this week.

Meanwhile who can contribute to solving this problem......

Is there a better fitting bearing that you may have used in your past tranny rebuild....????

It is nice to be able to insert pictures at the right place in the text BUT it takes a lot of twealing around from croppng to resizing to adding text than managing the individual attachments AND taking care to DELETE the ones previously inserted.....

...but I think I did it. What else can you do on a cold day!!!

Cheers

PS.... what happened this time......??? I am going back to the stone tablets....

[Bob Carriere]

.... my patience with the box is hitting bottommmmmmm

[chris vickery]

Looking good Bob.
Your pics bring back memories of restoring my 12 cab...
I like how you made the bottom framework for the cab.
I made my pieces from flatstock cut out on the bandsaw to the correct radius and pieced into place by cutting out the bottom part of the angle and then wrapping the angle to match the flat radiused piece.
No fancy bending required and just a bit of welding. Of course I had made a template on a sheet of plywood just to be sure using the old frame.
At the end of the day whatever works.
Just wait until you have to re skin the back of the cab.
My windshield frame was custom built from 2 M37 window frames, cut and welded on a jig to original specs using the old refurbished hardware.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

First we are talking Chevy CMP?

Assuming yes then, as to which way you drive out the lower counter shaft I'm not sure which way it likes to be driven, put it is definitely one way. I believe the end toward the bell-housing is tapered so that it goes in from the rear and is driven out toward the rear.

Someone please confirm, because memory says that someone on MLU has BROKEN a case by driving the shaft the wrong way. (15 minutes later checked the manual and the lower idler shaft goes in from the rear and out toward the rear, my problem was what the different shafts are called.)

Strange you should be looking for transmission parts it is the Second Transmission Rebuild Question This Month I've read. Herman, in Belgium was in touch last week looking for help with getting parts to rebuild the lower cluster shaft bearings for his CMP. His problem was his e-mail would not work to get in touch with Obsolete Chevy in Georgia little e-mail relaying e-mails between the gal who knows what parts they have stashed away, and Herman and his parts are now on the way.

Obsolete Chevy http://www.obschevy.com/Pages/OurCatalogs.html parts is where I've been getting transmission parts for years. They are the ones who had a NOS transmission when I needed on two years ago. You can check on line to see if they have the part you need. But if they don't have it listed give them a call because they have a lot of parts not listed in online catalog because they have only one or two.



Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Chris

Yes we discussed cutting and doing a curve piece as you mentioned but in the end did the pie cuts and welding.

We have now finished replacing the bottom angle iron. A jig is really needed when you start cutting out parts as the remainder becomes very floppy.

See photos of the semi finished back wall. It has to go back in the jig to finish the reinforcement ribs and tack weld them in the proper spot.

Cheers

[Bob Carriere]

...and it originated froman enquiry from Herman.

It seems that the front bearing.... Hyatt 1206 is no longer available but NTN as a substitute that does not fit.

The counter shaft is 38.mm the ID of the new substitute is 38.44 and loose/

I have ordered both the 1207 and the offending 1206 and await there arrival..... will go into town with the countershaft and try them there for size.

The reverse gear shaft MUST BE driven from the front towards the back or the case will crack for sure. the front end of the shaft is cut semicircle and fits into a beefed up section that effectively keeps the shaft from spinning. The reverse gear rotates on that shaft supported on two brass sleeves/bushings.

To remove the countershaft from the bottom of the case you need to hammer the visible end of the shaft at the rear towards the front..... that will push out the sheet metal cap that sit tight over the front 1206 bearing.

The 1206 from bearing has an insert or bearing race that needs to be removed to fit over the shaft. The shaft measures just under the original 38mm and the OD of the insert is 38.44mm making for a loose fit.

[Bob Carriere]

.....is not very helpful. One would need to call them for specifics on these two bearings.

Still determine to see if there IS a modern substitute that fits properly or start building up a reserve of these odd sizes.

Bob C

[rob love]

The original GM part number for the bearing of 142260 comes up on ebay a couple times.

As well, for cross reference purposes, here is a link to the NSN for subject bearing, along with other part numbers (and the code for the manufacturers) of the same bearing.
http://www.dlis.dla.mil/webflis/pub/...4596&newpage=1

Some examples are: EMERSON POWER TRANSMISSION CORPORATION
ROLLWAY BEARING pn UM1305B108

CNH INDUSTRIAL A18182

MERITOR 1228H268 or 2338N580

The NSN page also gives the GM part number of 7451442, which on ebay leads you to these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/GMC-roller-b...item1c4e05e032

The dimensions he gives are somewhat off, but they are a hyatt 1206, are in Quebec Canada, he has plenty, and they are $6 each.

[chris vickery]

Bob
I ended up sheeting the rear cab panel with 16g which was a little
heavier than original and harder to work with.
I believe 18 g is correct and will form nice to the contour if you roll weld and tack into place as you go.

[Bob Carriere]

Now waiting for fair weather to do the sandblasting and skinning.

Will be using 18guage Chris as it is closer to the original 19 gauge. We plan on rolling the ends and will work to have a close fit during dry runs.

When everything is ready we will be using the automotive metal glue. works great and give sufficient working time before final set. Edge will be rolled at the bottom using a bead roller.

We have used the glue before on a cab 13 and it worked beautifully solid with no heat warpage. It also seals the space between the angle and the skin hopefully reducing chance for rust to form. Should last another 74 years!!

Everything will get coated with POR 15, binding primer and 2 or 3 coats of OD.

While waiting for more suitable weather we will be redoing the engine cover panels that have cancer near the floor area. This will give us a chance to make use of our pan box brake.

Cheers

[Bob Carriere]

Notwithstanding the miserable 7 nches of white fluff we got in the last 24 hours...... Grant and I worked on the cab 11 after we managed to blow some of the snow out of the driving area.

At this time of the year I have to take the snowblower tractor out of the barn to get the cab 11 stored out of the sea can and into the barn.

Weather warmed up and at one point Lucifer was cranking so much heat we had the place up to 75F..... and worked in our shirt sleeves.

The issue is to fit the engine cover back on the truck. Both side panels have been eaten away by rust so before cutting an welding new patches to the panels we need to clearly establish how long should the patch be at the bottom where it bolts to the floor.

Fitting the engine cover panels after the nose panels are in place MAY be the wrong sequence. One step forward 3 steps back. Next Tuesday will remove the front external engine cover and see if we can coaxed a few more 1/8 or 3/16 of travel so the engine cover will fit best.

First frustrating discovery.... the engine side panel will not fit with a 261 c.i. and the civilian road draft tube..... it hits the the captive nuts of the removable panel that gives access to the plug wires and dizzy.

Luckily Grant had salvaged a CMP cab 13 very short draft tube with a threaded fitting for the PCV. Removing the draft tube in cramped quarters is a nightmare. I crawled underneath and using a cut off broom handle was able to tap the underside of the draft tube enough to loosen it. We installed the shorter model and gained considerable clearance. The shorter draft tube required a piece of 3/8 rubber hose to extend the metal PCV pipe. Next week we wil flare a new complete steel line for the PCV system.

Next step backward. My dizzy is equipped with a Pertronix system and has the typical 261 tall dizzy cap and rotor. Now we realize that the cap is way too close to the engine cover. The apparent solution, yet to be applied, is to replace the tall modern cap and rotor with a shorter 216 cap and rotor...... we will gain over one inch of clearance.

It is also obvious that the spark plug wires are one too long and will need to be shortened by quite a few inches. Also some 90 degree plug boots will be beneficial for cyl. no 6 and 3. Angled boots for the dizzy on about half the cyl. will also help routing the cable as short as possile and without touching the engine cover. Fortunately I bought a full large grocery bag of ignition wiring at a flea market so I can mix and match until get the right fit.

Finally quite proud with having fitted almost perfectly the two sides and back panel of the engine cover..... and about to start/drive the cab 11 out of the barn..... the starter lever we had screwed off the starter stomper would not fit back on as it was about 3/8 below the oval hole.

Reason.... as we assembled what will be a cab 11 1/2 due to all the mix and match panels salvaged from other trucks most being cab 12. Now I know why the original engine panel of my cab 11 had the starter hole all enlarged and beaten and twisted..... of course we choose a better panel and the darn hole is now too high. Part of the solution is when we have the external panels from the nose removed and the floor panels tweaked we may have enough clearance to fit the starter handle back on.

We keep reminding ourselves of the wise words of Phil Waterman when he talked about re assembly of his cab 12......." assemble every cab panel loosely then drive it around so parts will shake themselves in place... " theb tighten the bolts. Boy was he rigth!!!!!

Once we have the engine cover properly fitting, they will still need to be removed for welding the rust patches...... see how they fit..... removed to paint them and install some heat/sound insulation and re installed with proper machines screws and the finishing cup washer and yards of antisqueaking gasket material.

For that matter ALL the front end cab panels will need final removal for proper machine screws and gasket material installation, touch up of all the scratches on the paint and a final readjustment of the valves ( one seems to be ticking more than needed) and to subsitute a 216 valve cover with proper 216 air filter instead of the existing 261 4 bolts modern GM cover...... it will better disguise the 261 as a 216....after all it the same digits just sequenced differently.

On the bright side we drove it in low gear 4x4 in 2 feet of wet snow and at a fast idle and the wheels do not even spin...... front and rear axle gouging a nice round center furrow in the snow bordered by two herringbone tracks in the snow.

One day..... one day it will be all done.......

Just remember when they say a 261 will just bolt in a CMP they did not particularly meant a cab 11.

Cheers

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

Interesting that you are having such a problem, I originally fit all engine panels when the my truck had the 216 and didn't even think about it when I switched engines to the 235 last summer. My 235 is late version so it shares many fittings with the 261.

Of course I was fitting my covers using your drivers side panel which you loaned me to copy. When I made my copy I did modify the copy by splitting it in two sections which makes it a lot easier to remove that side with out having to remove the rest of the engine cover.

Will look through my photos to see if I've got any photos that might be of help.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil

When I cleaned up my dirver's side engine cover I wanted to go back to the original configuration and of course welded back the two section into one..... now I realize how hard it is to fit the darn thing.

First is a picture of the PROPER breather tube for a cab 13.....low profile and tuck close to the engine block.

The second is from my cab 11 engine I removed.

Last two are of my cab 11 with the 261 circa 1959 civilain breather tube. It is significantly taller, hides one spark plug and you can see some scratches onit where the caged nut was rubbing on the tube. The proper short tube does not use a long retaining bracket.

Not sure I want to go back to cutting my side panel in two section....but one piece is a bitch.

Our plans for Tuesday is to remove the front sheet metal to have access to the foor panel and see if we can loosen the floor bolts to allow to tip the foot panel inwards which we hope will slightly rotate the side engine covers counter clockwise bringing the back of the engine cover to touch the floor plate.... it is high by about 3/4 of an inch right now. The hole in the 45 degree foot panel are oval and their is room to move slightly. As we reinstal the floor panel we will also replace the bolts for machined screws and finishing cap washers and with gasket anti squeak material.

Remind me of what you used to insulate the inside of your engine cover. I have a one square foot sample of a 1/4 in. foil backed spun glass panel I obtain from a supplier in Toronto.... apparenty not affected by water or oil but would need to be wired in place using the existing holes and hand made staples using MIG welding wire...... not sure of the cost but will not be cheap. On the exhaust side I have about 3/4 clearance from the red hot manifold and may use a section of asbestos cloth salvaged from NOS foundery mitts for the section near the manifold.

Thanks for your help.

Cheers

[Bob Carriere]

As we progress with fitting the engine cover we discover other little "irritants"

My 261 Chev engine is currently running with a rebuilt 1959 distributor and a off the shelf universal spark plug wiring loom.

Will have some recent pictures after this weekend but the modern dizzy is about 1 1/2 inch taller than the original 216 dizzy. This causes the wiring to be touching far too much against the engine cover.

I was under the FALSE impression that you could just simply replace the shallow dizzy cap and rotor from a 216 dizzy to a 1959 dizzy....NO WAY.

The shaft on a modern 1959 dizzy is taller than the older 216....just will not fit...and caps and rotor must be paired with the proper cap.

So the next step will be to remove the existing 1959 dizzy...... remove the Pertronix system which I will install in an older NOS 216 dizzy and hopefully it will start on first try.

Some of the sparkplug wires will also be replaced with angled boots to allow for shorter cabling and less of a spider's web in there.

The other issue has to do with the "dipstick" ..... no not the neighbours kid.
On the 1959 Chev truck the 261 dipstick could easily be pulled out because it has a long tube and a long dipstick...... there is no way it can now be removed for checking using the round access port hole near the feet of the driver.

We will have to remove and shorten the tube and shortened the dipstick while managing to retain the same oil level measurement.

Final lesson learned..... you have to install the transmission floor cover before you can finish installing the two side engine cover. back cover than the instrument cluster.
We are just in the finishing stages of patching the rusted section of that tranny floor cover. You know rust is bad when you have to work from 3 differently rusted cover to manage final measurements.

Cheers

[Bob Carriere]

Learned some thing new today.

In my attempt to replace the 1959 distributor with a new NOS 216 dizzy I ran into some technical difficulties.

I had planned to remove and transplant the Pertronix system from the 1959 distributor to the 216 dizzy...... NO DICE..... it will not fit. The 216 dizzy fits beautifully in the 1959 block and gives me extra clearance but the Pertronix guts will not fit.

Checked the Pertronix cataloque online and they only list one size fits all for Chev dizzy from 1933 to 1962 as model 1168 ....... but that is not the full listing.

Called Pertronix Technical support and once I provided the specific dizzy part number # 1110090 was told that I need the special 2161 model...... and yes NOT ALL possible applications are listed on the online catalogue.

So I am off to Ebay to procure myself a new system model 2161 with the new Lobe Sensor.........

On the plus side...... the new rebuilt tranny cover that Grant toiled over the last few days fits beautifully. Grant copied from 3 badly rusted covers to rebuild one new solid cover....... just needs to cut up a section of inner tube for the rubber flap.

....and life goes on!!!

Cheers

[Jes Andersen]

Bob, Thanks for these posts. I follow them with interest and your collective progress has once again inspired me to do something in my shop. Although I am not doing CMP stuff, the process is similar and I am learning the techniques as I go along. My M37 Life Extension Project continues....

Today, we have sunshine here and should reach 14C or so. Lawn and garden are looking like they want some attention. My condolences to those in the east still buried in the white stuff.

Jes

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Jess

I to enjoy reviewing the M152 site. As a former Dodge nut I had my share of M37, M43/152 and Ambulance. Lots of pleasant memories of four wheeling with the Outaouais 4X4 in the late 70s. My truck was converted as a camper and made extensive use of the SouthWind heater.

I have since pass the "baton" to Rob Clarke, who partly resides at the Barn and he has acquired his own fleet of trucks and eyeing my old trucks for his collection. Sadly none are running anymore.... the last one running an M37 used for skidding logs with chains on 4 wheels may get revived this Summer.

One of our favorite trick to avoid mosquitoes was to drive the trucks on sandy lake shoals into about 2 feet of water and park there away from most of the bugs....... walk out the passenger door onto the fender, hood and sit on top in a lawn chair sucking a beer...

Then were the days.

Meanwhile hoping for +9 degrees tomorrow when I will open both ends of the barn to allow some warmer air to thaw out the concrete floor.

Still labouring with Grant on the fitting of the engine cover...... we are literally wearing out the treads of 5/16 fine tread bolts with the number of time we have installed and removed the panels and we are not over yet.

Currently the ignition is down, the E brake remove, the winch brake loosed, the seat removed and half the outer nose sheet metal just to properly reach the engine cover.

Sometimes it feels like we are going backward.

Cheers

[Bob Carriere]

If you suspect the bushing in the clutch pedal cluster is worn out..... replace it early in the reassembly stage.

I had to remove the fuel pump for clearance and finally removed the floor panel, some of the sheet metal on the driver's side and the whole pedal cluster to be able to replace a $3 brass bushing....... nothing is easy on these beast.

Having previous expereince as a contortionist with a local circus is an asset.

This of course is on a cab 11.........

My advice is to upgrade everything you can WHILE you can during the re assembly.

Cheers

[Bob Carriere]

Was looking at an older Utube of you driving the C60 and you have a gauge on top of the windshield........ what is is for and what did it show at 40 mph???

Cheers

Bob C

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Bob

Actually now there are two gauges above the windscreen, silver ringed one is a vacuum gauge and the OD is a oil pressure gauge. (In the video you saw there was also an inaccurate RPM unit)

Pretty sure the video you are watching was taken summer of 2008 and shows Beauty running down the road going home from Weare Rally and pulling a long hill. Being 2008 or later it would be the 261 engine. Which always reads 42psi of oil pressure at anything much over idle RPM. I installed the 2nd oil gauge after that because the gauge in the normal cluster is pegged all the time once the engine starts.

The vacuum gauge in video on the flat road holding 40 MPH was showing 14 inches of vacuum. Once you take your foot off the gas the road vacuum jumps up to 26-27" only time the wipers really work good.

Next time I have Beauty out will try and remember to put the gopro camera so that it is picking up all the instruments.

Cheers Phil

[hrpearce]

Same subject, different thread.
Bob look at your first picture above the reverse lock is on the right of the stick.

[Bob Carriere]

In post #47 above.... it is a picture of a parts truck, ex water bowser that I took apart years ago...... never noticed that the lock lever was on the right side.... never actually drove it either.

Now I am going to go back to my early archived pictures just to see how many margaritas I had been drinking....

More to follow.....

[hrpearce]

Reference, MB-C1 page B-2 Fig. 1

[Bob Carriere]

I have looked at original photos of the truck, some during disassembly some after it was reassembled....... and I have the shifter lock alternating from right to left....... and obviously it works on both side.

I also found pictures of tranny covers with short and long shifter and right and left reverse locks...... so I have been confused for some times it seems.

So for the record.... what is the proper orientation of the shift lever??? leaning forward or bent backwards...?

Currently it is on the left side bent backward and works well.

I better hurry up and finish this truck before I forget how to drive it.

Cheers

[Bob Carriere]

They all show the lock on the right with the lever leaning forward to accomodate the semi COE of the CMP.

Civilian chevs have the shift lever bent backward as the cab is conventional.

Details drive you nuts.

NOTE.... I have confirmed that the reverse lock levere ONLY fits and works when installed on the right/driver's side..... and is actually pulled by the index of the left hand when shifting

Must go play with it tomorrow to refresh my memory.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Bob: Exhausted.
Grant: On his back.
Rob: Scraping bottom.

'Eats, shoots, and leaves'