class III wheeled vehicle

[DITNER, S.M.]

Gentlemen:


Maybe I have been going at this the wrong way round.


I have posited the question more than once with no replies:

"What exactly is a Driver-Mechanic Class III qualified to drive?"

While doing research on 4PLDG in Italy, I came across a web site that highlighted the experiences of a Canadian chap who drove a CLASS III WHEELED VEHICLE.


Can one of you armoured history types specify precisely what this class of vehicles included? I am having a hell of a time sorting this out.

Also, if anyone can confirm or deny whether 1 Canadian Armoured Corps Reinforcement Unit was at Blackdown Camp or Bordon proper this would be of value also

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by DITNER, S.M.
Also, if anyone can confirm or deny whether 1 Canadian Armoured Corps Reinforcement Unit was at Blackdown Camp or Bordon proper this would be of value also

No. 1 Canadian Armoured Corps Reinforcement Unit (for Reconnaissance Battalions and Armoured Car Regiments) was raised in the United Kingdom under authority of General Order No. 301 of 1942, effective 1 April 1942 and was disbanded in the UK under authority of General Order No. 321 of 1945, effective 30 June 1945. They were located in the Bordon-Aldershot area.

Cheers

[DITNER, S.M.]

Sir:


Thank you for your prompt reply. As I have suggested ad nauseum in previous posts I am well into a bio of a relative killed while with 4PLDG in Italy and have gone cross-eyed trying to figure out whether he was at Bordon itself, or at Blackdown where 1 CACRU was headquartered. His letters, sadly, aren't particularly illuminating on this....

I believe, based on your info and an amusing book entitled "All Tanked Up" on the BBC "People's War" site that he was, indeed, in Bordon Camp itself. Have a look at this bit, it's quite interesting!

Anyway, I digress. Appreciate your help now and before.

Kind of you to assist an infantry type

Regards

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by DITNER, S.M.
Kind of you to assist an infantry type

..... I was probably wearing the EIGHT POINTED STAR before you were even thought of......

Cheers

PRO PATRIA

[servicepub (RIP)]

Bordon was the location of the Canadian Central Ordnance Depot. A tanker could be there but if he was in CACRU then he should have been at Aldershot.

[DITNER, S.M.]

Mr. Tonner:

Crikey, now I've gone and insulted you. You seemed too clever to be infantry!

Is this the result of a commission? I am always suspicious when a former RCR can count the number of points on his cap badge. They make a heck of a cookie pattern....

Over/Out

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by DITNER, S.M.
I am always suspicious when a former RCR can count the number of points on his cap badge. Over/Out

Shot, over!!!

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by DITNER, S.M.
Also, if anyone can confirm or deny whether 1 Canadian Armoured Corps Reinforcement Unit was at Blackdown Camp or Bordon proper this would be of value also

As Clive said:

Originally posted by servicepub
A tanker could be there but if he was in CACRU then he should have been at Aldershot.

Black Down Camp (Hampshire) was within the confines of what was then, Aldershot Command. Your relative, well on strength of 1 CACRU, would have been at Black Down Camp. Good luck with the rest of your research and bio.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by DITNER, S.M.
...You seemed too clever to be infantry! .....I am always suspicious when a former RCR can count the number of points on his cap badge......

..... some of us have evolved.....not only can I count, but I can also read and 'WRITE'.... but for some strange reason, I still have a full length mirror mounted on the wall inside the entrance to our home....

NEVER PASS A FAULT .....

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by DITNER, S.M.
As I have suggested ad nauseum in previous posts I am well into a bio of a relative killed while with 4PLDG in Italy

Have you seen these microfilm reels:

RG24 , National Defence , Series C-3 , Volume 14204 , Reel T-12647
Serial: 580
File Title: 4th Reconnaissance Regiment (4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards)
Outside Dates: 1941/02-1942/12

RG24 , National Defence , Series C-3 , Volume 14205 , Reel T-12648
Serial : 580
File Title: 4th Reconnaissance Regiment (4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards)
Outside Dates: 1943/01-1944/12

RG24 , National Defence , Series C-3 , Volume 14206 , Reel T-12649
Serial : 580
File Title: 4th Reconnaissance Regiment (4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards)
Outside Dates: 1945/01-1945/08

which you can obtain on a inter-library loan from Library and Archives Canada, through the Toronto Public Library (or local library depending on where you are in the GTA).

Also, if you go to Library and Archives Canada (Ottawa), you my find these files of interest:

RG24 , National Defence , Series C-2 , Volume 12532
File : 6/4 RECCE R/1
File Title: Organ and admin [Organization and administration] - No. 4 Recce Regt [Reconnaissance Regiment] - 4th PLDG [Princess Louise Dragoon Guards]
Outside Dates: 1941/01-1945/10

RG24 , National Defence , Series C-3 , Volume 16718
Serial : 1142
File Title: No. 1 Canadian Armoured Corps Reinforcement Unit
Outside Dates: 1942/07-1942/12

RG24 , National Defence , Series C-3 , Volume 16719
Serial : 1142
File Title: No. 1 Canadian Armoured Corps Reinforcement Unit
Outside Dates: 1943/01-1943/09

RG24 , National Defence , Series C-3 , Volume 16720
Serial : 1142
File Title: No. 1 Canadian Armoured Corps Reinforcement Unit
Outside Dates: 1943/10-1944/12

RG24 , National Defence , Series C-3 , Volume 16721
Serial : 1142
File Title: No. 1 Canadian Armoured Corps Reinforcement Unit
Outside Dates: 1945/01-1945/06

Cheers

[DITNER, S.M.]

Mr. Tonner:


I was only vaguely aware of these sources and was certainly not aware that they could be loaned via the Toronto Public Library, which has been a great resource as it stands.

I can't thank you enough! To date, I have been using a variety of sources including 4 PLDG regimental history, Nicholson's "Canadians In Italy" and anything else I can lay hands on.

Though I marched under the colours of our shared regiment and knew several of the Second War honours to be from the Mediterranean, I confess it was not until I discovered that I had a relative serve there that I became curious.

Now, you might argue I am obsessed (ask my wife).

Anyhow, thanks and I will get right on this....

On another note, I was quite impressed to hear that you left the service with skills you could truly use. Civvy street is a frightening place and any jump you can get on these awful people is well worth the effort. I loved my parents, until I found out THEY were civilians.

All the best to you and yours.


"VRI - Do or Die"

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by DITNER, S.M.
Now, you might argue I am obsessed (ask my wife).

... not to worry, a month or so back, a fellow forum member, who shall remain 'nameless', replied to the question:

"What is the meaning of obsessed?"

to which he replied: "Mark W. Tonner"..........

Cheers

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Anything Mark doesn't know about history is probably not worth knowing.

Gotta admit, the RCR crack made me laugh out loud.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by DITNER, S.M.
To date, I have been using a variety of sources including 4 PLDG regimental history, Nicholson's "Canadians In Italy" and anything else I can lay hands on

Are you aware that the Directorate of History and Heritage (DHH), Department of National Defence, has these resources available online:

Canadian Military Headquarters (CMHQ) Reports 1940-1948, located: here

and

Army Headquarters (AHQ) Reports (1948-1959), located: here

the format of which are PDF. Once the page opens on each link, scroll down and you'll find reports on operations in Sicily/Italy under both the CMHQ Reports and the AHQ Reports.

Cheers

[DITNER, S.M.]

Mr. Tonner:


More thanks due. I have been using the CMHQ reports, but was unaware of the second site.

I have been able to augment some of my pre-"Husky" segments using the German sources and also found the Canadian tank production report of interest.

I will also be contacting the local library with regard to microfilm. This will be particularly valuable as the 4PLDG regimental history is somewhat cursory in spots.

At the risk of being patronizing - thanks yet again. I am certain I will be availing myself of your insight as I go along and if I ever get this thing published, I will happily credit you with the contributions....


Regards

[klambie]

I was curious to see if an answer to the original question might pop up, but I'll throw out a theory in place of real information. Perhaps someone with a better understanding how trades worked during this period can confirm or deny.

Rather than indicating a type of vehicle, is it possible that Dvr-Mech Class III is just an indication of his experience and progression within the Dvr-Mech trade? I presume Class III to be the entry level of the trade, with Class II and Class I possible. I base this on seeing individuals qualified as Clerks Group 'C' qualifying as Clerks Group 'B' after a period of time with a unit and presumably doing some tests, etc. I've similarly seen this for Cooks as well. In those cases at least, Class III does not seem to speak to the equipment they are qualified on.

I'm also reasonably certain that I've seen 'Group' and 'Class' used interchangeably as well as 'III' and 'C'. So I would guess that a Dvr-Mech Class III is the same as a Dvr-Mech Group 'C'.

Any additional info appreciated.

[DITNER, S.M.]

Mr. Lambie:

I originally went at my query the same way you have approached it and believe this to be the correct approach.

By this I mean that the "Class III" is indeed an indication of the level of proficiency attained.

However, I found a bio on a Canadian padre (McCreery- the last padre to be KIA) that spoke of a "Class III wheeled vehicle", hence my reference to same in the question you saw earlier. I thought this might be a clue but I believe, as do you, that the numerical designation is a trades reference.

I am somewhat surprised that I can get so little info. on this.

Appreciate your insight

[DITNER, S.M.]

Mr. Lambie:

I had a second look at records for Sgt. Ditner. There is a second trades entry, made in 1944 that indicates his qualification as Driver-Mech. Class C.

This would appear to suggest that Class III and Class C are different, or perhaps different vehicles. I am also wondering, being a former "Pay Level III" infantryman if the designation isn't a remuneration issue.

Anybody?

[Neil Ashley]

In the modern British Army you have A, B and C Class vehicles namely Armoured, Soft-skin and Plant (bulldozers etc).

I thought this was a post-war thing but perhaps others can comment further?

[Ponysoldier]

For the American army Class means types of supplies.
For instance class 4 is fuel, oil class 6 is booze,beer
etc could this fit ?
It could also mean a type of bridge but that doesnt fit.
Patrick

[DITNER, S.M.]

Gents:


I believe I have the punchline to this one. A print-out supplied by the helpful blokes at Archives would appear to suggest that "Driver-Mechanic Class III" is responsible for all aspects of field repair and maintenance as well as operation of all of army's vehicles excluding tank and road grader.

I do know from letters written by relative that trainees at Borden also drove tanks but I am supposing this was done to "round out" their training.

This fits with his assignment to Special Base Depot (a motor pool) prior to returning to driving scout cars and carriers with 1 CACRU.

The answer to riddle is apparently that Class III was a reference to types of vehicles that tradesman was entitled to operate.

G'day to all