Panzerjäger Bren 731(e)

JTH · #1 04-06-09, 05:35

Folks,

I have followed this thread for a while now and am very impressed with the knowledge and work of everyone here. Our club has at least 4 carriers in it not including mine, and instead of doing a repeat fo the other versions I was looking for an unusual varient. I original thought WASP (there is one at the war museum I could take measurements off of,) but then ran across info on captured carriers used by the germans and though that might be a different way to go. I am leaning towards the panzerschrect carrier with 3 antitank rocket launchers mounted in a rack on top. I have order some books on captured equipment, and have a few pictures, but details are hard to come by. This site has some info: http://forums.filefront.com/fh2-sugg...ren-731-e.html

Anyone have any pictures or information on captured carriers? And I would appreciate your thoughts on the viability of this project.

cheers

JTH · #2 21-06-09, 05:36

Bump.

Anyone have any information on captured carriers?

pzrwest · #3 21-06-09, 06:14

I have a book here with just about every German tank etc they had. And I remember seeing some captured carriers with the rear sides removed and a platform on either side of the engine box and soldiers sitting on the plaform with their legs hanging dow the sides and the name given was a schlepper. I'll see if I can find it was packed before we move to the house here so may be awhile finding the book

Lynn Eades · #4 21-06-09, 10:49

Maybe its a real "Bren". Most were lost at(or before) Dunkirk.

RichardT10829 · #5 21-06-09, 14:10

as per Lynns comments they put lots into service for the sheer versatility of the vehicle. Nigel Watsons Vol 1 of the carrier book has numerous pictures of carriers being used by germans.

here are some pics for you that i had (for idea's) you already had one so i posted the others instead, first one is a line of captured carriers (the german cammo looks so much better in my opinion)

here is a wasp if you want to stay allied forces

and finally to be very different here is a 2 pounder tank hunter (as per Kevin Powles build)

Blackpowder44 (RIP) · #6 21-06-09, 20:19

here is a tank hunter

maple_leaf_eh · #7 22-06-09, 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTH

Folks,

I have followed this thread for a while now and am very impressed with the knowledge and work of everyone here. Our club has at least 4 carriers in it not including mine, and instead of doing a repeat fo the other versions I was looking for an unusual varient.

Building a common UK or Canadian Carrier is just fine with me. The idea was the factories made them by the thousands, and there is more than enough room for variation across the range. For example, the CWM has a Mk I beside a Mk II. Easy to compare one to the other and back.

I think some of the old fellas would rise in rightous fury that you were giving the Jerries much credability by putting an effort into duplicating a captured vehicle. A colleague of mine was researching Canadian soldiers who deserted and collaborated with the Nazis. He had very limited success finding out their stories. Almost every door was closed. The lure of the Crooked Cross was strong for these half-dozen guys, but they were hung as traitors (truely) after the war. Not something that sat well with ANYONE who knew or served with them.

JTH · #8 22-06-09, 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Building a common UK or Canadian Carrier is just fine with me. The idea was the factories made them by the thousands, and there is more than enough room for variation across the range. For example, the CWM has a Mk I beside a Mk II. Easy to compare one to the other and back.

I think some of the old fellas would rise in rightous fury that you were giving the Jerries much credability by putting an effort into duplicating a captured vehicle. A colleague of mine was researching Canadian soldiers who deserted and collaborated with the Nazis. He had very limited success finding out their stories. Almost every door was closed. The lure of the Crooked Cross was strong for these half-dozen guys, but they were hung as traitors (truely) after the war. Not something that sat well with ANYONE who knew or served with them.

I considered that as part of my selection process, however I think I can defuse any concerns by discussion of the events that led to the capture and the reality that the Germans used many captured vehicles. As well it is certainly likely to attrack more folks over to our display area.

I had the same sort of situation when I flew R/C aircraft. One of my aircraft was an FW-190D and I did have the odd question about Nazi equipment. I simply pointed out that war requires at least two opposing forces and I believe it serves to better illustrate the magnitude of our forces Victory and sacrifices to be aware of the calibre of equipment they faced.

We already get the general - you are glorifying war - comments which we treat very carefully (lest we forget), especially now that we have forces in harms way.

Thanks for your comments. I have plenty of time to consider them since to get to a captured carrier, I still have to get to the completed carrier stage first.

Jeff

RichardT10829 · #9 22-06-09, 22:21

in some respects i think doing a mok up of a captured carrier could be a good thing, it shows how both forces deemed this a great vehicle, and although some may disagree the captured brens still play a part in the history of the carrier itself. i was going to paint my carrier caunter pattern then the german gerry cans i had i was going to paint up as german gerry cans with the affrika corps emblem on, i only re considered after the worry that people will see the swastika and associate me with the national socialist party. obviously dont want that.

Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP) · #10 22-06-09, 23:32

IMHO, I don't personally think doing up a perfectly good carrier then painting it as a "capture" serves our veterans honourably, never mind anyone else. Instead, it smacks of some sort of false adoration of the Wehrmacht, seen already in too many reenactors... and I've seen first-hand the impressions some of them have left with those who once faced them for real, so long ago.

If you'd found a carrier with German colours and markings under layers of post-war paint, then I could see that being reproduced; but to the best of my knowledge, there are none anywhere, let alone in Canada. And even if I did find same and restored it accordingly, I would never wear feldgrau to parade it.

As a matter of fact, I don't think I'd ever parade it - it would mock those who once fought the Nazi horde.

The fact is that there are precious few carriers left throughout the world as it is, and each one is a testament to the courage and tenacity of those who had to ride them into battle. Better to dress them as representatives of Canadian units which once served our nation but no longer exist!

I hope that one day we might once again see a full carrier platoon on parade here in Canada... but with Canadian carriers. And lord knows, there are so many field-expedient variations which could be explored for re-creation! Not every restoration has to be factory-perfect - by the time the originals got to the front they were everything but...

Do what you wish - it's your carrier - but bear my words in mind. Yes, there were "captures"... Jeeps, trucks, carriers, everything up to and including Sherman tanks; but what does re-creating these accomplish, other than 'wasting' an otherwise perfectly good Canadian restoration??

Geoff

hrpearce · #11 23-06-09, 01:05

There are still raw emotions and fresh memories of the war with the senior citizens of all sides and I personally would not want to upset anyone. If we have smething of theirs that we captured we should keep it as we used it and if they have ours they should keep it the way they used it. It keeps the history alive without treading on toes. thats my thoughts for what they are worth.

JTH · #12 23-06-09, 03:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball

IMHO, I don't personally think doing up a perfectly good carrier then painting it as a "capture" serves our veterans honourably, never mind anyone else. Instead, it smacks of some sort of false adoration of the Wehrmacht, seen already in too many reenactors... and I've seen first-hand the impressions some of them have left with those who once faced them for real, so long ago.

If you'd found a carrier with German colours and markings under layers of post-war paint, then I could see that being reproduced; but to the best of my knowledge, there are none anywhere, let alone in Canada. And even if I did find same and restored it accordingly, I would never wear feldgrau to parade it.

As a matter of fact, I don't think I'd ever parade it - it would mock those who once fought the Nazi horde.

The fact is that there are precious few carriers left throughout the world as it is, and each one is a testament to the courage and tenacity of those who had to ride them into battle. Better to dress them as representatives of Canadian units which once served our nation but no longer exist!

I hope that one day we might once again see a full carrier platoon on parade here in Canada... but with Canadian carriers. And lord knows, there are so many field-expedient variations which could be explored for re-creation! Not every restoration has to be factory-perfect - by the time the originals got to the front they were everything but...

Do what you wish - it's your carrier - but bear my words in mind. Yes, there were "captures"... Jeeps, trucks, carriers, everything up to and including Sherman tanks; but what does re-creating these accomplish, other than 'wasting' an otherwise perfectly good Canadian restoration??

Geoff

Thanks Geoff and I will carefully add your thoughts to the process. One of the reasons I posted this question here was to get opinions on all aspects of this proposal. I am not hard over on my choice by any means.

There are of course varying thoughts on all that we do. If I chose the WASP someone would ask what it was for and while I would clearly not answer "Roasting folks from a distance" although it would be patently obvious that is what it could (and was) used for. We are very careful at the venues we attend as to whether or not dewats are displayed - even this provokes comments from some folks.

Thin skin vehicles are usually safe and we can always make the claim that "this is the vehicle that helped win the war" with no outward display of aggression ("Happy" little jeeps). Any true fighting vehicle can provoke negative comment. Heck we have even had to defend the "American" star on our vehicles to irate folks who did not know the true story. Most calm down when we explain it (especially when you point out it's crooked) but some don't.

In any event, far be it from me to provoke a veteran, since, as they say "I are one" and am very sensitive to the issues.

Clearly more thought needed.

thanks again

Jeff

Jordan Baker · #13 23-06-09, 08:47

Good points all around. However why beat around the bush about the true reasons for a wasp. Yes it was made for making people look like well done sticky BBQ ribs. Tell them that. It puts a very familiar picture (everyone knows what BBQ ribs look like) into almost everyones head and makes (correction FORCES) them to understand just how nasty war is.

You say thin skin vehicles are safe because they have no outward display of agresion. Everything in this hobby is based on aggrestion. Whether it be a tank, bomb, MG, or even a button for a BD blouse. They were all made for one purpose. To fight and win a war.

For the folks that have problems with this, thats their problem. Ive been to countless displays where I have had the typical "soccer mom" come up to me and ask what kind of gun such and such was. When I enformed her it was a Bren LMG, she was very excited as this is what her father had carried in the war. I talked to her about it and how it was used in detail. I then asked if she'd like to pick it up. She couldn't belive how "heavy" it was and that her dad could have carried it or used it. I got her to remember her dad was 20yrs at one time (not 80-90yrs) and he had a job to do.

Ok so I got a bit off topic.

Restor your vehicle the way you want to. Just remember one point. If you are going to do it right do it right and stick with it. On my UC, I painted a "Hells Angles" logo on the sides. Around these parts they are an outlaw motorcycle club that run the drug trafficing in the province and cause a lot of other problems. I chose to paint that on the side as that is what the Rgt had for a time while in England. Whenever I do static displays I have a framed picture done up with an excerpt from the War Diaries. In it explains about the Carrier Platoon got the term. Basicaly these guys lived up to the true meaning Hells Angles. Anyway I guess what I am trying to say is make up some kind of info to provoke discussion if you are going to do something a bit out of the norm. However be prepared for people to come at you with questions on why you did it that way.

JTH · #14 23-06-09, 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

Good points all around. However why beat around the bush about the true reasons for a wasp. Yes it was made for making people look like well done sticky BBQ ribs. Tell them that. It puts a very familiar picture (everyone knows what BBQ ribs look like) into almost everyones head and makes (correction FORCES) them to understand just how nasty war is.

You say thin skin vehicles are safe because they have no outward display of agresion. Everything in this hobby is based on aggrestion. Whether it be a tank, bomb, MG, or even a button for a BD blouse. They were all made for one purpose. To fight and win a war.

For the folks that have problems with this, thats their problem. Ive been to countless displays where I have had the typical "soccer mom" come up to me and ask what kind of gun such and such was. When I enformed her it was a Bren LMG, she was very excited as this is what her father had carried in the war. I talked to her about it and how it was used in detail. I then asked if she'd like to pick it up. She couldn't belive how "heavy" it was and that her dad could have carried it or used it. I got her to remember her dad was 20yrs at one time (not 80-90yrs) and he had a job to do.

Ok so I got a bit off topic.

Restor your vehicle the way you want to. Just remember one point. If you are going to do it right do it right and stick with it. On my UC, I painted a "Hells Angles" logo on the sides. Around these parts they are an outlaw motorcycle club that run the drug trafficing in the province and cause a lot of other problems. I chose to paint that on the side as that is what the Rgt had for a time while in England. Whenever I do static displays I have a framed picture done up with an excerpt from the War Diaries. In it explains about the Carrier Platoon got the term. Basicaly these guys lived up to the true meaning Hells Angles. Anyway I guess what I am trying to say is make up some kind of info to provoke discussion if you are going to do something a bit out of the norm. However be prepared for people to come at you with questions on why you did it that way.

Thanks Jordan

When I made my comment about thin skin vehicles it was mostly tongue in cheek. The impression that they moved food, water and troops is upper most in peoples minds. Moving ammunition, and the fact that the troops being moved are probably headed to combat, doesn't often come up. Want a really safe vehicle? A radio vehicle is probably it as you can talk about the radio. Mount an MG on a jeep and the attitude changes a bit. I am not above passing on the reality of war. I have been in, or involved with the CF for all my adult life (nearing retirement now) so I have a better understanding than most. Sensitivity is still the name of the game!

Jeff

The Bedford Boys · #15 26-06-09, 13:12

Hi all, I'm new to this superb forum of yours, so I don't want to cause to much of a stir! Haha But, I feel I must share my opinion. My Dad got into restoring military vehicles as a hobby because he liked the vehicles. I too have become enthusiastic about them through his involvement with them and because they are so rarely seen by the public. We are in a hobby that preserves history, not clouds it. I truely believe that building a carrier up to be one of the afformentioned captured german ones would be an excellent project, as it would show the public that both sides sometimes used each others vehicles.(And no-one else would have one like it! Haha) Of course you would not run it in a commemeration parade for fallen soldiers as that would be completely innappropriate. Just remember what we are in this to do: Keep military vehicles from fading from existance, be they rebuilt to "out of the factory" or done up as they were not originally.

Lynn Eades · #16 26-06-09, 23:40

Welcome to the forum! Its great to have another Kiwi on here,
I think it would be polite to have some names.

You can only stay anonymous for so long, being into carriers, and bedfords, and being a father/son combo severly reduces the slice of the population pie, down to an almost transparent slice.
The next thing is that the world should see your vehicles via this site, so you will need to post some pics.( which will help to I.D. you of course)
There are some amazing people on here. for an example, I was reading a post from Tony Smith about CMP brakes. In about 20 seconds he made a fog of thirty years disapear.
A truly great site with some truly great people. (thanks to Geoff W-B

)

RichardT10829 · #17 27-06-09, 11:37

i dont like this site i think its rubbish,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,NOT !

no getting round the fact that it is the premier group for carrier owners / enthusiasts "online" so thanks to Geoff. well I am off to try and black my other eye today.

JTH keep us posted on the resto and get some pics posted up buddy.

The Bedford Boys · #18 28-06-09, 08:25

We are Steve and Alex Denby. We've been out of the mv scene for a while, but are slowly getting back into it. Dad (Steve) has restored an MW Bedford and a 3" Mortar Carrier (amongst other mvs), both of which now belong to another forum member. I am currently gathering info on the early Bedford MW "pneumonia wagons", as I wish to build one of these. A friend of ours has alot of MW stuff, but as the shed is filled with my Austin mini restoration at the moment, my MW has to wait!

Apologies for minorly hijacking the thread! haha

Lynn Eades · #19 28-06-09, 09:13

So do you know either of these people?

The Bedford Boys · #20 28-06-09, 09:29

That's Paul "Broken Axles" Hopkins and my sister. Haha. Was that at the Easter Rally this year? gutted me and dad didn't go!

Lynn Eades · #21 28-06-09, 11:35

You're onto it. Where your sister is standing is just down from the biggest slip in the southern hemisphere, and the valley has filled under her feet(and for a mile or more down the valley)by about 100 feet. (or 30 odd metres for you younger people)
For everyone else, the New Zealand Military Vehicle Collectors Club (NZMVCC) has a rally every year in a different part of the country, at Easter. This years rally was hosted by the Gisborne branch, and these two young people both have parents and grandparents, who are, or have been members of the NZMVCC.
Lastly my apologies, for majorly hi-jacking this thread.