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Over heated Ford (Mercury) Engine on my F8
My helpers took the F8 out for a spin that other day (it was 100 F (37.8 C)out) and stopped to talk to a neighbor down the street while leaving the motor idling. By the time they arrived back to the house the temp guage was pegged and the radiator overflow pipes were draining anti-freeze fluid. Obviously the engine had overheated. It's a '46 Mercury.
I know that Fords/Mercurys have a problem with this but wonder if the problem lies with the thermostats. (I have new water pumps so this shouldn't be the problem.) Or, with the four-bladed fan blade. I've been advised not to run the engine without the thermostats or restrictors so wonder which would be better, 160 F or 180 F one. Any thoughts, advice, etc. will be appreciated! Regards, Jim |
#2
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The first thing I'd do is ditch the thermostats. That's an old wives tale about needing them. Those pumps aren't that efficient that you need to slow the water down. If the flattie is running around 120 without them and conditions start it heating up you've got more leeway than if you're starting at 180. If you look at the LRDG pictures the trucks usually had the hoods removed to allow for more air flow in the hot conditions.
Did you do anything to clean the water passages on the engine and rad? If not that can cause problems. If that's the case put some Drano in the rad and run it for half a day then drain and flush. It's amazing what that gets rid of.
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1940 Cab 11 C8 Wireless with 1A2 box & 11 set 1940 Cab 11 C8 cab and chassis 1940 Cab 11 C15 with 2A1 & Motley mount & Lewis gun 1940 Cab 11 F15A w/ Chev rear ends 1941 Cab 12 F15A 1942-44 Cab 13 F15A x 5 1942 cab 13 F15A with 2B1 box 1943 cab 13 F15A with 2H1 box 1943 Cab 13 C8A HUP 1944 Cab 13 C15A with 2C1 box 1943 Cletrac M2 High Speed Tractor MkII Bren gun carrier chassis x 2 |
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David,
Thanks for the advice! The engine was clean and the radiator a new one so neither of these contributed to the problem. Regards, Jim |
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Before you ditch the thermostats?
Question for you are the thermostats new? Did you test them to be sure they are actually opening at the rated temperature? I've been doing test on all the thermostats I've put in rebuilding engines last couple of years and discovered a interesting thing. Brand new fresh from the manufacture thermostats are often slow opening the first dozen or so times they open and close. Which will cause and engine to run hot the first few times you bring it up to temperature. There is a big difference in how fast heats the engine pushing the truck down the road than running the engine stationary.
What I do now with new or even old thermostats I test them and cycle them on the stove in a pot of water. Bring the water up to the rated temp 140 180 what ever then dip (using tongs) the thermostat in see how quick in opens. Then dip it into cold water. Do this several times you will be surprised that with a new thermostat it will open a little faster each time.
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Phil Waterman `41 C60L Pattern 12 `42 C60S Radio Pattern 13 `45 HUP http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/ New e-mail Philip@canadianmilitarypattern.com |
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Ditch Thermostat?
Quote:
Also with these old vehicles on a stinking hot day you can't even keep the motor running sitting in a drive-thru at McDonalds or wherever without the temp creeping up and up. Remember that Henry Ford's SV V8 has the exhaust ports running across the block between the cylinders. This contributes to a hot motor thru its design. A clean radiator and functional waterpumps would seem necessary. Also who's paid good money to have their radiator 'professionally cleaned' only to find it still has blocked cores cos they did it ultrasonically instead of removing the bottom tank and rodding it out like it needed? You only find out after things have gotten hot again! That nice fresh black paint ain't a certification! Phil, from the same vehicle I can confirm that thermostats certainly can't be trusted from new because I then had to play with a string of thermostats that were opening later than their rated temps. In my situation I settled for a 160 thermostat that tested OK and seemed to resolve the issue with that type of motor. Regards Alex -- M3 Grant, Val, Ferrets, WM20, CMP's |
#6
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thermo
the idea of having thermostats is to create a temperature difference between the engine block and the radiator ... this temp. difference siphons the coolant around .. hot water rises, like in a home hot water system ... If you remove the thermostats, the whole system is almost at the same temp., and you lose the thermo-syphon effect . Many veteran cars have no water pump at all ...they soley rely on the thermo-syphon thing to circulate the coolant around.
Those SV Ford lumps are HOT motors ,it's a design thing ,the exhaust gas ports are such that the motor runs hotter than it should. Mike
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1940 cab 11 C8 1940 Morris-Commercial PU 1941 Morris-Commercial CS8 1940 Chev. 15cwt GS Van ( Aust.) 1942-45 Jeep salad |
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Way back in the day vehicles didn't have very efficient heaters. Henry Ford took note of this so when the flattie was being designed he insisted that they run the exhaust ports through the block. This would make the motor run hotter and hence a more efficient heater. The rest is history!
Any motors from the fifties and earlier that I've had anything to do with seem to cool better with no thermostats. Those old water pumps don't pump that well at the best of times so you don't want any more restrictions that you can avoid. Another thing if a motor's running too hot try playing with the spark timing. A few degrees here and there can make quite a difference but on a Cab 11 it's a pain in the butt to do. Sometimes a size bigger on the carbs main jet helps too.
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1940 Cab 11 C8 Wireless with 1A2 box & 11 set 1940 Cab 11 C8 cab and chassis 1940 Cab 11 C15 with 2A1 & Motley mount & Lewis gun 1940 Cab 11 F15A w/ Chev rear ends 1941 Cab 12 F15A 1942-44 Cab 13 F15A x 5 1942 cab 13 F15A with 2B1 box 1943 cab 13 F15A with 2H1 box 1943 Cab 13 C8A HUP 1944 Cab 13 C15A with 2C1 box 1943 Cletrac M2 High Speed Tractor MkII Bren gun carrier chassis x 2 |
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Over heating
Back when I was a kid on the farm at Corowa everything that ran ended up being powered by a blitz or carrier motor including ski boats and tractors. The trick we found as long as all other cooling system components were in good condition was to run an extra pint of oil in the sump.
85% of engine heat goes to oil to be disipated. We never suffered with oil foaming or pumping it out and motors ran hot but acceptably ever during harvest in a header. |
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Jim
what engine oil are you using?
The reason why I ask is because, it is reccomended to use a mono grade oil in the flathead v8, because mono grade oils have better heat transfer qualities. I would not ditch the thermostats. I would use 160 ones. preferably waxstat ones.( bellows ones fail in the closed position usually) Some engines overheat because the water circulates too fast without thermostats. They cause your engine to heat up to working temp. quickly, and then maintaining an even temp,which leads to a long service life. There are quite a few very pertinent comments to this thread that should help. Lynn.
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Bluebell Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991 Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6. Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6 Jeep Mb #135668 So many questions.... |
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Have you considered.....
... if the thermostat issue does not seem to make a significant improvement...... have you considered using a remote oil filter such as a double spin on PH 8 arrangement..... the two filters will give you an extra 1.5 quart of oil and with the filters remotelly installed inside the frame they will be in the airstream adding some cooling features. The cast aluminium remote filter brackets are usually available at flea markets as left over of the old hot rod days for $10-$20....... and you could also include a engine oil cooler for greater heat dissipation.
Don't forget that you new engine will have more friction has parts slowly settlle in place.... Enjoyed your posting.....good luck. BooBee
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Bob Carriere....B.T.B C15a Cab 11 Hammond, Ontario Canada |
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Old Wives Tale
Hi all - I think ditching thermostats is the old wives tale. Go back to the grass roots of engine design where a need was assessed to incorporate thermostats. Sixty three years on the engine is not as efficient through the water flow areas. Fix that and you should have no problems. Ditching thermostats is using the same rationale as to converting to 12v electrics. If you replicate the wiring correctly and not use modern wiring, no problems. Millions of vehicles utilised thermostats and 6v. Modern day restorers should recognise these facts.
Bob
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Chevrolet Blitz Half-Track Replica - Finished and Running Ford F15 - unrestored Ford F15A X 2 - unrestored Website owner - salesmanbob.com |
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Quote:
Even when flatties were relatively new they were always on the verge of heating and too hot a day or too heavy a load would put them over the top. It's just the nature of the beast. Under these conditions you have to use any trick available to help out and you'll still have to watch the temp gauge.
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1940 Cab 11 C8 Wireless with 1A2 box & 11 set 1940 Cab 11 C8 cab and chassis 1940 Cab 11 C15 with 2A1 & Motley mount & Lewis gun 1940 Cab 11 F15A w/ Chev rear ends 1941 Cab 12 F15A 1942-44 Cab 13 F15A x 5 1942 cab 13 F15A with 2B1 box 1943 cab 13 F15A with 2H1 box 1943 Cab 13 C8A HUP 1944 Cab 13 C15A with 2C1 box 1943 Cletrac M2 High Speed Tractor MkII Bren gun carrier chassis x 2 |
#13
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Jim,
What fan are you using,& did you fit a fan shroud ? |
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Thoughts on the replies to Overheating
Anthony,
The fan is the standard 4-bladed one and no, I don't have a shroud. I have considered a shroud but don't want to contrict the possible air flow around the mainfolds. A 6-bladed fan might be a better addition. I've considered all that's been said and believe that one of the two thermostats is not working properly. I recalled that when I tested them on the stove in a pot of water awhile back that one of them was slower to open than the other. I'm replacing them both with a pair of 160 F ones that came with the Mercury engine and are new. I also am considering adding an oil cooler to the system. (I am using a mono number weight oil, by the way.) Thanks to all for your contributions to my thread; keep them coming! Regards, Jim |
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Hi Jim,
I had overheating issues with the M20 armored car as well as the C8. In both cases I removed the thermostat and haven't had any problems with overheating or cold weather starting since then. I don't know about which is ultimately better, I just know that it worked for me. Chuck |
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Jim
Im not familiar with your vehicle, but the lack of a fan shroud may be part of the problem.
without a shroud, the air may "wash" around the ends of the fan blades, instead of drawing the air through the radiator.
__________________
Bluebell Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991 Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6. Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6 Jeep Mb #135668 So many questions.... |
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Thermostats
If having thermostats to restrict coolant flow so it stays in the radiator a little longer is desirable, yet there is the possibility they are not opening as designed, would installing theromosts that are jury-rigged to stay open be a possible solution?
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#18
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Jury rigged thermostats; blanking off radiator front; hole in thermostat pressing.
Hi Bruce,
That sounds like a disc of brass or something, with a hole drilled in it in place of the thermostat. I think I tried that with my engine mentioned above but wasn't happy with the results - non variable to suit changing conditions. Also while I think of it I spose most people have heard of covering part or all of the radiator frontal area when very cold? You see it in photos, and colder clime people are probably familiar with it. I used to carry a piece of stiff cardboard I'd jam between radiator and grill on my old car when driving long distances on cold nights - so the engine would keep warm and importantly so I could get a bit of that thru the heater! It didn't completely blank off the whole width of the radiator just 2/3rd or so. And a working temp gauge is a useful guide in case you aren't cold enough. Also some thermostats have a little jiggle device in a hole just nearer the edge and I presume it's to allow trapped air to release during cooling system filling, the jiggle may be to stop it getting blocked up. Some have a little notch pressed into the body such that the valve doesn't seal that tiny portion presumably for the same reason. I think older (or perhaps cheaper) thermostats had no such provision so I'd drill a 1/8" hole to one side. I'm interested in any instructive comments about this. Regards Alex -- M3 Grant, Val, Ferrets, WM20, CMP's |
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