BCATP info sought

[Tony Smith]

Not a relative of mine, but helping out a pal at work who's compiling a family history.

"Lawrence Thompson was born on Lord Howe Island on 10 Sep 1912. Lawrence enlisted in the RAAF in Sydney on 16 Sep 40 and applied for training as Aircrew. Two older brothers, Nathan and Percy also enlisted, but in the Army, with Nathan being a WW1 Vet. He trained at No2 Initial Training School at Lindfield in Sydney until 12 Oct 40 (Keith may be aware of the place, the grounds became Film Australia!), and was then moved to No2 Embarkation Depot at Bradfield Park until sailing for Canada on 31 Oct 40 as part of the Empire Air Training Scheme (EATS). Note that he did not do any flying training in Aust.

On 21 Nov 40, Lawrence commenced training at Calgary, Alberta. The Provincial Institute was home to No2 Wireless Training School. Flying exercises were conducted at Sheppard, an RCAF Airfield just east of Calgary. On 26 Apr 41, Lawrence moved to Mossbank, Sask to commence in No2 Bombing and Gunnery School. Mossbank was a base built specifically for the BCATP scheme in Oct 1940 and closed in Dec 44, the location being selected because the nearby Old Wives Lake was a valuable Navigation Aid and bombing and Gunnery range. Aircraft used in training at Mossbank were Fairey Battle planes and were survivors of the earlier battles over Britain, with many having hastily repaired bullet holes.

On 2 Jun 41, Lawrence's training in Canada ceased, and he transferred to "M" Depot at Halifax, from where he sailed to the United Kingdom on 15 Jun 41."

The above is a quote from Part 1 of my mate's research, and more will be forthcoming, but I was hoping to fill out some details and clear up any errors. I note that the majority of schools and depots are recorded as No 2. In Australia, this is probably correct as NSW is No 2 Military District and this is probably the correct designation for the Initial Training School and Embarkation Depots, but is it more than co-incidence that Calgary and Mossbank were also No 2 schools, or was there some continuity in the scheme and the training heirachy?

And what information is available about "M" Depot in Halifax and the Convoy he would have sailed on, including possible ships carrying Aircrews?

[Bruce MacMillan]

I think it's just coincidence. B.C., Alberta and southern Saskatchewan were under #4 Training Command Headquarters. Northern Saskatchewan & Manitoba were #2 Training Command HQ.

#1 wireless school was Montreal so when Calgary opened up it was #2. It became one of the biggest wireless schools in the Commonwealth.

My grandmother worked at Sheppard during the war. I have a photo of her & fellow workers standing in a room full of tables but nothing to sit on.

This link lists numbers & locations for most of the bases.
http://jfchalifoux.com/bcatp.htm

Bruce

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

The above is a quote from Part 1 of my mate's research, and more will be forthcoming, but I was hoping to fill out some details and clear up any errors. I note that the majority of schools and depots are recorded as No 2. In Australia, this is probably correct as NSW is No 2 Military District and this is probably the correct designation for the Initial Training School and Embarkation Depots, but is it more than co-incidence that Calgary and Mossbank were also No 2 schools, or was there some continuity in the scheme and the training hierarchy?

And what information is available about "M" Depot in Halifax and the Convoy he would have sailed on, including possible ships carrying Aircrews?

Hi Tony;

Some answers:

1. - In Canada, the Wireless Schools were located as follows:

No. 1 Wireless School - Montreal, Quebec (16 Feb 40 to 1 Sep 44)
No. 1 Wireless School - Mount Hope, Ontario (1 Sep 44 to 31 Oct 45)
No. 2 Wireless School - Calgary, Alberta (16 Sep 40 to 14 Apr 45)
No. 3 Wireless School - Winnipeg, Manitoba (17 Feb 41 to 20 Jan 45)
No. 4 Wireless School - Guelph, Ontario (7 Jul 41 to 20 Jan 45)

and the Bombing and Gunnery Schools were located as follows:

No. 1 Bombing and Gunnery School - Jarvis, Ontario (19 Aug 40 to 17 Feb 45)
No. 2 Bombing and Gunnery School - Mossbank, Saskatchewan (28 Oct 40 to 15 Dec 44)
No. 3 Bombing and Gunnery School - MacDonald, Manitoba (10 Mar 41 to 17 Feb 45)
No. 4 Bombing and Gunnery School - Fingal, Ontario (25 Nov 40 to 17 Feb 45)
No. 5 Bombing and Gunnery School - Dafoe, Saskatchewan (26 Apr 41 to 17 Feb 45)
No. 6 Bombing and Gunnery School - Mountainview, Ontario (23 Jun 41 to Post War)
No. 7 Bombing and Gunnery School - Paulson, Manitoba (23 Jun 41 to 2 Feb 45)
No. 8 Bombing and Gunnery School - Lethbridge, Alberta (13 Oct 41 to 15 Dec 44)
No. 9 Bombing and Gunnery School - Mont Jolie, Quebec (15 Dec 41 to 14 Apr 45)
No. 10 Bombing and Gunnery School - Mount Pleasant, Prince Edward Island (20 Sep 43 to 6 Jun 45)
No. 31 Bombing and Gunnery School - Picton, Ontario (28 Apr 41 to 17 Nov 44)

2. - In Canada, the BCATP facilities came under command of one of four Training Commands of the Royal Canadian Air Force, these being:

No. 1 Training Command, R.C.A.F. - Headquarters - Toronto, Ontario - responsible for all BCATP facilities in Ontario except those in the far southeastern and northwestern ends of the province.

No. 2 Training Command, R.C.A.F. - Headquarters - Winnipeg, Manitoba - responsible for facilities in northwestern Ontario, Manitoba, and part of Saskatchewan.

No. 3 Training Command, R.C.A.F. - Headquarters - Montreal, Quebec - responsible for all BCATP facilities in far southeastern Ontario, Quebec, and the Maritimes.

No. 4 Training Command, R.C.A.F. - Headquarters - Regina, Saskatchewan (Apr 40 to Oct 41 - transferred to Calgary, Alberta) - responsible for all BCATP facilities in British Columbia, Alberta, and part of Saskatchewan.

As you can see from the above mentioned, both No. 2 Wireless School (Calgary, Alberta) and No. 2 Bombing and Gunnery School (Mossbank, Saskatchewan) came under No. 4 Training Command, R.C.A.F. I think that the numbering of both schools (No. 2) is more of a co-incidence, it had nothing to do with the Military Districts here in Canada. Calgary, Alberta was located in Military District No. 13 and Mossbank, Saskatchewan was located in Military District No. 12.

3. - He would have sailed from Halifax in Convoy T.C.11 (Halifax - Gourock, Scotland) which was composed of the following six ships: "Britannic", "Indrapoera", "Stirling Castle", "Windsor Castle", "Andes" and "Pasteur".

4. - The Royal Canadian Air Force operated five Manning Depots across Canada, these being:

No. 1 Manning Depot - Toronto, Ontario
No. 2 Manning Depot - Brandon, Manitoba
No. 3 Manning Depot - Edmonton, Alberta
No. 4 Manning Depot - Quebec City, Quebec
No. 5 Manning Depot - Lachine, Quebec

two of these depots were used principally for the BCATP, these being:

No. 1 Manning Depot - Toronto, Ontario
No. 2 Manning Depot - Brandon, Manitoba

so I have no idea of what “M” Depot at Halifax would have been, unless he may have passed through No. 6 District Depot (for R&Q) which was located at Halifax, prior to embarking on T.C. 11.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[rob love]

A little off the main subject, but Old Wives Lake is still an area where Canadian student pilots from Moose Jaw, along with the aerobatics team "SnowBirds", fly over for training. I got to go on a few crash calls to the area. It is ideal as there is very little for the aircraft to hit if they do go down.

[Keith Webb]

No2 ITS was at Bradfield Park and it was also the embarkation depot. No1 ITS was at Somers in Victoria. No3 was in Queensland and 4 was in South Australia. From places like these the trainees went to their various musterings.

For pilots the NSW EFTS (Elementary Flying Training Schools) were:

4 EFTS Mascot New South Wales

5 EFTS Narromine New South Wales

6 EFTS Tamworth New South Wales

8 EFTS Narrandera New South Wales

10 EFTS Temora New South Wales

10 EFTS is where I'm writing to you from right now.

Then there were many other WAGS, BAGS, AOS and technical training schools all over the place.

[japes]

As Rob said in an earlier post, a little off topic but...The old BCATP base at Mossbank is now the local golf course. Some of the runways and taxiways are still there but for the most part unrecognizable. Only one building still exists and I believe that it is used as the clubhouse. There is a plaque recognizing it's former history out front by the highway. A few years ago, during a particularly bad drought, the remains of an Anson were recovered off the dry lake bed as well as practice bombs, MG links and other bits from it's days as #2 B&G. It's quite amazing to think that such a large lake was actually dry not that many years ago.
On a more sobering note, there are still a couple of Aussies that never left Mossbank buried in the local cemetery. If I remember correctly they crashed while trying to find the base in a fog. I can pass on names etc if anyone is interested.

J.P. Brescacin