M38A1 CDN3 markings

[chris vickery]

I am now at the point of having finished up the mechanicals on my jeep to turning to the details and do-dads.
I will not even open the paint debate, as that has been decided already.
I will be doing the 3 colour camoflage.
My jeep is set up with wire cutter, gpmg moung, 1919gpmg and radio kit and antennae.
My CDN3 was a former 1 Hussars ARMD RECCE veh. Of course this was a militia regiment. I wish to know the correct veh markings for this jeep in service post 1975. I assume the Cdn flag colour decal but were there any tac markings or unit markings?
I am also interested in possibly configuring my jeep as used overseas during this same time period. Would subdued markings be appropriate and what would be correct for armd recce, to which unit(s)?
I know not 100% correct, I did take the liberty of using the militia gpmg mount with a set of 524 radios installed, although I do also have PRC77s available...

[rob love]

The M38A1Cdn2 and 3 were only fixed up in the fantasy role of a light recce as a cost saving measure for the militia back in the austere 70s and 80s. They were not used overseas in the armoured recce role.

If you want the light recce vehicle from overseas during that period, then you need a Lynx. There would have been one jeep in each squadron mind you as the OCs rover. He had all three; a tank, a lynx, and a jeep.

[Gunner]

Hi Chris:

Rob is right on the money. If you want to do a recce jeep for overseas service you`ll have to go to UN markings.

The recce symbol is one of the standardised NATO tactical signs as found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Mi..._Based_Systems

Scroll down and you`ll find the recce (or cavalry) symbol.

The badges were painted in contrasting colour (black on green, green on black or even half and half if it was on a shift between colours- though we tended to try to keep the area for the badge all green or olive to save hassle) and were about the same size as the flag. Subdued flags were not generally in use until after the M38A1 was out of service though I have seen the odd one. We used to smear cam stick or mud on the red and white flags when on ex. The reserve CBGs were not invented until after the M38A1 was gone so the unit size indicator (also in the noted website) should be the two bars of the battalion or regiment (our Commonwealth regiments being battalion sized) and the First Hussar designator (1H) should be at the top right corner of the symbol parallel to the ground.

Hope this helps! Cheers, Mike

[chris vickery]

Thanks Guys

So, in theory, my CDN3 done as a militia jeep of 1 Hussars should have;
RED and white Canadian flag on front pass fender and rear driver bumperette
TAC sign (rectangle / slash mark for recce) on driver side front fender, rh side rear bumperette
The TAC sign should also have II 1H with it? A little confused on the relation in placement to the TAC symbol.
White hood numbers and dash number

[rob love]

No white hood numbers. They had license plates for the CFR numbers. The dash numbers should be there though.

You also should stencil the tire pressures (H and CC) over each wheel well.

There were the FMC Standing orders as well as various brigade standing orders which directed the markings on each vehicle. Never seen these orders? Well then you would be in the 98% of the NCMs that hadn't either. As a result, many of the markings ended up being dictated at the unit level. Best bet is to contact the unit's museum and observe photos of what they actually had in use if you want to see what actually existed, as opposed to the usual over-stenciling done by collectors.

Further to what Mike was saying above, the only time I can think of that a Jeep type vehicle was actually sent into a war as a fighting recce vehicle was early in the Afghan war. (Only the Liberals would send their soldiers into battle with sofskinned, unarmoured 17 year old vehicles. Thank you Conservatives for giving our soldiers the equipment they needed and deserved: RG31s, functional Leopards, AHSVS etc) We were not there as peacekeepers as in previous conflicts, like Bosnia, Cypress, or Egypt where we were "neutral" in the conflict. Yes there were shooting incidents in all those wars, but those were more anomalies rather than the expected results.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

White hood numbers and dash number

When I got mine it had the numbers, in white, about 1 inch high, below the door sill on each side. This is in addition to the number on the dash (actually, it was on the window frame and was mis-leading as the window frame was a replacement)
Clive

[Gunner]

Hi Chris:

You want you tac sign to look like this:



Cheers! Mike

[chris vickery]

Thanks Mike, how thich should the lines be for the tac symbol?

[maple_leaf_eh]

I was in the Reserves during that period. The flags front and back. Two Canada licence plates with the same 5 digit number, and the year and 5-digits stickered on the top centre of the dash

No tire pressures - they are shown on the data plates IIRC, and except for an unreliable compressor from the Deuce And A Half, we didn't have any way of pumping up the tires.

No CFR number stencilled under the door.

The basic paint should be a coarse 3-colour camoflage. Before that, it would have been monochrome semi-gloss dark green with the 4-pointed FMC sticker on the opposite front fender from the flag.

[Gunner]

Hi Chris:

The lines should be about 1/2 an inch thick all around.

Terry and Rob have raised an interesting question about tire pressures. The books I have indicate that the TP should be on the inside of the driver's door or on the dash, if there was no door, as follows: TP: F36 R40. Sometimes the words Tire Pressure(s) were written out. Some units seem to have adopted the US style of marking over the wheel arches or on the sides of the fenders so both could be historically accurate but on the door or dash would be more correct.

Cheers! Mike

[Ed Storey]

Images of post-1975 Canadian military vehicles show that vehicle markings were and still are very subjective. Some units adhere quite strictly to marking doctrine, while others seemed to ignore it completely. The Regular Force seems to have been far better at marking their vehicles according to official guidance although there are still differences between the various brigades and how they applied the markings. I have several hundred images of numerouss Canadian military vehicles from this period that I use as reference and although I did not get a photograph of every vehicle at every CF base across Canada, I have a very good cross-section of vehicle types in use by DND. From the images that I have, I could not find many vehicles with tire pressure markings and only a few with comprehensive tactical markings. Naturally CFR plates seem to be the only common factor with the Canada flag decal being the next common marking element.

[45jim]

The "Recce" tac symbol provided is incomplete...Infantry units used that symbol. Armoured units had the track symbol in the center added to denote an Armoured unit rather than a Grunt unit. This would always be on a Recce vehicle Reserve or Regular.

The M38A1's I drove in the Militia had the CFR repeated on the dash and under the engine hood in white. We (Lorne Scots) had one jeep that was still gloss green under the hood and on the inside of the tub. I believe that's they way they were produced (Gloss or semi-gloss Green) and the cam paint was added later. I remember that it appeared that the cam paint was brush painted on, not sprayed.

[rick25]

Ed, Do you have any of these pics hosted online?
Thanks,
Rick

[Ed Storey]

No, they are not on line.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Therea are a number of M38A1 photos on-line at RamTank.ca. Few are the 3-tone cam. Those that are solid green do not show 'TP' markings over the wheel-well although most show the number below the door sill. The tac sign is unseen in any of the images but that is to be expected.

[Gunner]

Hi Jim:

My own experience is that the recce tac sign was used on vehicles only by recce units. Inf recce platoons would have the battalion level marking on them not platoon level. It is my impression that the tank track symbol was jealously guarded by sub-units with Lynx and the "plain" recce symbol was used by militia regiments, however, as Ed has noted it was a time of liberal interpretation by unit and bde commanders so there are lots of variations!

You absolutly right that all the M38A1s came from the factory painted semi-gloss OD. The cam paint was added starting late 1975 or early 1976 at the unit level. I remember my Warrant at the time handing me a book of drawings (I still have the book somewhere) and a bunch of chalk so I could go out and mark the trucks to spec. I got in sh*t if I strayed more than three inches from the drawings! We did the unit's trucks (71 Bty, 26 Fd RCA) over a weekend. All hand painted with brushes!

Cheers! Mike

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Gunner

Hi Jim:

My own experience is that the recce tac sign was used on vehicles only by recce units. Inf recce platoons would have the battalion level marking on them not platoon level. It is my impression that the tank track symbol was jealously guarded by sub-units with Lynx and the "plain" recce symbol was used by militia regiments, however, as Ed has noted it was a time of liberal interpretation by unit and bde commanders so there are lots of variations!

You absolutly right that all the M38A1s came from the factory painted semi-gloss OD. The cam paint was added starting late 1975 or early 1976 at the unit level. I remember my Warrant at the time handing me a book of drawings (I still have the book somewhere) and a bunch of chalk so I could go out and mark the trucks to spec. I got in sh*t if I strayed more than three inches from the drawings! We did the unit's trucks (71 Bty, 26 Fd RCA) over a weekend. All hand painted with brushes!

Cheers! Mike

Ditto! Same situation, but maybe a year later.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Gunner

Hi Chris:

You want you tac sign to look like this:

Attachment 45704

Cheers! Mike

Cross brace for cavalry (check),

No oval for tracked recce (check), and

Missing two small circles underneath for wheeled recce (yawning chasm of absence).

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

I am now at the point of having finished up the mechanicals on my jeep to turning to the details and do-dads.
I will not even open the paint debate, as that has been decided already.
I will be doing the 3 colour camoflage.
My jeep is set up with wire cutter, gpmg moung, 1919gpmg and radio kit and antennae.
My CDN3 was a former 1 Hussars ARMD RECCE veh. Of course this was a militia regiment. I wish to know the correct veh markings for this jeep in service post 1975. I assume the Cdn flag colour decal but were there any tac markings or unit markings?
I am also interested in possibly configuring my jeep as used overseas during this same time period. Would subdued markings be appropriate and what would be correct for armd recce, to which unit(s)?
I know not 100% correct, I did take the liberty of using the militia gpmg mount with a set of 524 radios installed, although I do also have PRC77s available...

Only one RT524 is required, with a PRC77 manpack on another frequency. According to the militia organizational chart in the manual of the day, a troop of 5 or 7 jeep "callsigns" would have operated forward with squadron HQ which had two Chev 5/4 command post trucks trailing not far behind. One for the main CP and one for step up or alternate. If necessary for rear link, a lucky unit had a ground plane antenna or a 20' mast. The squadron commander should have had his own rover, but if there weren't enough jeeps he would have just had the CP. There were never enough jeeps, or he would have chosen a '74 Pattern jeep.

[Ed Storey]

Aaarrggg! I am pulling my hair out, it is M151A2....!

Besides being correct, M151A2 is fewer characters to type then Pattern 74.

[rob love]

74 pattern jeep, rollover jeep, or disposable jeep. These were the terms used by everyone in the military I ever dealt with back then. M151A2 was only seen in the technical publications, and the term MUTT was totally unheard of.

[45jim]

Gents, this symbol is not a wheeled or tracked based one, its based on the task performed. When the Coyote replaced the Lynx the tac symbol did not change since the task did not. And since we no longer have actual Recce Regiments which could use the pure Recce symbol, just embedded Recce Squadrons in an Armoured Regiment, this modified symbol is appropriate.

As a "Recce Dog" in the Strathcona's we taught the Militia jeep Recce every summer. This started during the M38A1's final years (and the end of the '74 pattern jeep) with the switch to the Iltis. We used to paint out the tac symbols at the beginning of the course (they were not worthy) and then upon successful completion of their Recce Crew Commander's course they could paint them back on.

Your right its a pride thing, but once back at the unit...who knows?

[rob love]

I'll add my 2¢ to the discussion on the tac sign. In my teen years I was light recce with the FGH. If memory serves, we used the oval with the one diagonal bar. It also seems to me that we had the two small bars on top, and put the initials of our unit to the right of the symbol. Pretty much all the Western reserve units did it the same way.

[Gunner]

Poor Chris!

Chris; look for photos of 1H jeeps from the time but if the oval makes you feel good go for it!

The little wheels underneath were never used on vehicle tac signs just in map marking.

The pictures that Jim posted are exactly the ones we were issued. Its interesting that the jeep pictured looks like a "51 pattern" (hi Ed!) M38. It didn't matter, as all 'jeep' like vehicles (M38 family, M151 family) got slathered with the same pattern by young soldiers under varying degrees of coercion and with varying degrees of enthusiasm! That's why I frequently use exterior latex house paint for top coating... easy on, lasts a long time , easy cleanup and cheap... also hold brush marks well for that authentic slapped on paint job! If you want to really capture the look, consider using an old mop to apply the paint!!

You haven't discussed call signs yet. About 6 inches tall, a simple font like "Arial" and usually two digits and a capital letter- ie: 22C. On jeeps these were under the doors or in the area just ahead of and below the windshield on each side. I can recite from memory all the Herbie (Gunner) call signs but check with a Zipperhead like Jim or Daryl to confirm the armoured recce C/S.

Cheers! Mike

[rob love]

In our unit the call signs were never permanently applied. Usually they were just put on with chalk the day of the ex, since you could never count on which jeeps would be available, or which drivers would show up.

Even today you can usually tell a reserve force MLVW from a regular force MLVW by the lack of callsigns on the doors.

[Gunner]

Good point, Rob: The only vehs in 71 Bty with permanent C/S were the gun tractors, the CP (command post), and, I think, 29's (the Battery Commander's) jeep. Most other vehs were borrowed from the Third Herd (3RCHA) for weekend ex's.

(parentheses added for the jargon impaired! )

Cheers! Mike

P.S: Rob: amazing work you're doing on the 105mm C1!!! I bow in admiration and jealousy!

[rob love]

Thanks for the compliment Mike. It is coming along nicely, and it seems every trip to Westbourne finds something new. I was out a couple days ago and found the case for the panoramic sight. I thought I found the brass ends for the cleaning rods, but turns out they are for the 155, as they are too big a diameter to stow in the trails.

There are a couple impossible to find pieces yet, but the list keeps getting shorter.

[Gunner]

Rob: If you want to part with the 155 ends I need several (I think four but will have to check). I have asked a machine shop in Ottawa to estimate the ends in brass and in aluminum but I think they will be prohibitively expensive. Stuart Beeney is also looking for some.

Cheers, Mike

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Gunner

Rob: If you want to part with the 155 ends I need several (I think four but will have to check). I have asked a machine shop in Ottawa to estimate the ends in brass and in aluminum but I think they will be prohibitively expensive. Stuart Beeney is also looking for some.

Cheers, Mike

Mike
Shoot me a PM on this....I think we can work something out. Unless a 155 falls into my lap in the next while, I am not actively looking for one and these are of no use to me.

[Gunner]

Done and done!

Thanks, Rob!

Cheers, Mike