Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Mrs Vampire]

look forward to seeing that Mike.

Synthetic most likely refers to Alkyd enamel

[Private_collector]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I have a 1939 GMH made chev cab, it has a little tag on the cab that looks to be there from new stating, "this vehicle is finished in synthetic enamel"

Maybe there is a 'naturally occuring, organic' enamel somewhere. That's one drilling rig I wouldn't wanna work on.

Seriously, it may be Yellow Ochre tinter. That seems to feature in most vehicles I painted over the years. Even if it was in trace amounts, sometimes.

[Mark Mackenzie]

Greetings,

I have been searching for the origin of KG3 for some time and believe it may have originated as far back as WWI and was based on colour of the British Army Uniform. My reasoning for this is the history and articles on the excellent web-page on "Blanco":

http://www.blancoandbull.com/

If you read from the beginning, the colour was originally "Blanco No. 53":

http://www.blancoandbull.com/blanco-history/no-53/

which was then picked up again for WWII as KG3:

http://www.blancoandbull.com/blanco-history/kg3/

This colour is more of a brown shade that Khaki Green J. It can be seen in colour film at IWM and was used on vehicles and equipment (helmets etc) universally (as shown below).

Cheers,
Mark

http://zoom.iwm.org.uk/view/20346&ca...ject-205123850

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib...at=photographs

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib...at=photographs

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib...at=photographs

[Mike Cecil]

From Gina: "It seems from my reading the army folk were inclined to refer to Khaki J from that chip-set as Khaki Green Number three and that a perception that because that colour was changed three times ( twice in 1942 and once in 1943 ) the resulting colour was Khaki green version 3 or number 3."

For what it is worth, the Standards Association of Aust Standard Colours for Camouflage paints (the colour chip book issued with AS No. (E) 2K.509), issued January 1943, shows 'J. Khaki Green' ( not just 'Khaki') with a note: 'Equivalent to Army Khaki Green No. 3.' So the Dept of Home Security (ie Dakin's team), who developed the Aust paint colours for general use (not just Army), designated their colour as KG, which they then refer to as the equivalent of the Army's designated colour KG3 - which would explain why Army persist in calling the colour KG3 - no matter what its source - or have I got my wires crossed up somewhere?

Mike

[Mrs Vampire]

Florite paints have provided all the stenographic analysis and colour matching , even visiting the Tank with their electronic equipment to ensure we had it right.
All of the paints we are testing and producing are available from them . That includes all of those on Mike Starmers chipset sheet.
where I am at with the paint colours.
picture 1 from the left KG3 (Australian) KGJ from my best sample to date Lower rectangular plate OD9 from TM9 Ordinance , Small white sample above that Inside White for Stuart spectrographed from pristine sample, happy to say 100% on that one, Upper square sample Jacques colour match of his KGJ sample the light green sample is the primer colour for the Stuart ( other than the very dark grey base primer on some other parts and areas. )
Next is the KG3 commonly used in Australia compared to Mike Starmers chipset. Mike is a very highly regarded colour expert from the UK. I note that the UK version of KG3 is considerably Browner than the Australian version. This I think lends weight to my theory that Australian KG3 is the third toning down of KGJ ( First late 1942 , then mid 1943 and again late 1943 ) But unless Mike has it completely wrong the UK and Australian KG3 are very different colours.
third photo is my latest best shot at KGJ (1942) compared with Mikes chipset. It most closely approximated the British version of OD ( but note that colour is somewhat different to American OD ) But really its like none of the UK colours.
Finally on the Desert yellow "light Stone " as seen on some 25pdrs for example the one in the AWM and the one at Bandiana. The Australian examples seem to be quite different to the one in the Imperial War Museum and on other UK based examples. I am able to get a chip of that and will have it tested and post a sample when I have it.

Mike the files have the Chief of engineering in the Army referring to Khaki Green J as does Dakin and others until the final act of despair by the army in November of 1943 where he declared KG3 would be the standard colour and all attempts at disruptive schemes would be abandoned. Dakin agreed with him. The Army had problems firstly applying the disruptive patterns as per orders, then in parking the vehicles so it was effective. If the vehicles were incorrectly placed the disruptive because of the recognizable pattern became easier to spot not harder.
After observing US vehicles painted uniformly olive drab in joint exercises with the Australians Dakin and the army were convinced it was the easiest most effective way to camouflage. The decision to adopt KG3 does not refer to what that meant in terms of actual colour. Looking at Mike Starmers chip it is clear the Australian colour is much greener than the UK version. Mike Starmers has observed the UK KG3 was not a part of the BS chipset rather a colour developed by the army over time.
Given there is little resemblance between the KG3 UK and the Australian KG3 in am inclined to the idea that this is the third version of KGJ . Though others have pointed to references to KG3 by the Australian army prior to November 1943. That , in my view is as you suppose the britisification of Australian terminology by some, and not a reflection of what was going on with the boffins who were mixing up the brew and those in the senior ranks who were getting exasperated with all the changes and near impossibility to get uniformity of application and use out in the field.
From my reading of the files I still stand by my position the only paints colours available were those approved by the military . The repair of motor cars being one of the few exceptions where a civilian could get paint for other than a defense authorized purpose. The paint supply committee held tight reign on the rationing of paint and pigment.
The issue with differences in colour seems to narrow down to paint that was made in Melbourne which faded very quickly and was considered unsuitable. It took a little while for that situation to be resolved but explains that in black and white photos there appears to be some widely different colours.

[Mrs Vampire]

I have also nailed the primer used in the fuel tank bays and the undersides of the fuel tank armor as well as the interior white from pristine unexposed samples. The green is 95% right the tiny difference being due to the chromate pigment used in the 40s being no longer available . The interior white I am 100% confident .
As for the green...its bright but its right

All paints including those on Mike Starmers chip set are available from Florite in Sefton NSW. They provided the spectrographic analysis and careful comparisons as well as visiting the Tank to ensure as accurate match as is possible.

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Gina,

This is an interesting discussion. Taking into account the following comment "Given there is little resemblance between the KG3 UK and the Australian KG3 in am inclined to the idea that this is the third version of KGJ . Though others have pointed to references to KG3 by the Australian army prior to November 1943." I looked at just how early in the papers I have that KG3 is referred to as such. The earliest reference I have is the specification MGO 101 'Paint, Prepared for use, Khaki Green No.3. For application by Spraying. Specification to govern supply and Inspection Approved 5 May 1940.' It was issued as CS/1269 in Australia and was accompanied by a colour 'tint ship'. You must have seen it - it's held in the Vic office of NAA.

The next comment is in a letter dated 3 Dec 1941, between Sec Dept of Home Security to Sec Dept of the Army, which refers to experiments in Southern Command conducted in Oct 1941, where the paint pattern used was English, but with 'Khaki-green No.3 substituted for British Standard Service Colour No.61 Light Stone'.

More telling is the preamble to Mech Circular 301 of 22 Jan 1942, para 3, which states "Australian paint manufacturers are at present supplying Gas Resisting paints in Khaki Green No.3 and Light Stone BSC No.61." Earlier in that paragraph, it states that 'gas resisting paints should be used if available, but disruptive painting is not to be postponed on this account. Camouflage Paint, Type B, Australian Standard Specification Emergency Standard No. (E) K.507 is to be used for colours other than gas resisting." (my underline). In other words, continue to use KG3 and LS BSC61 gas resisting in preference to the equivalent colours in (E) K.507 (KG-J and Light Stone-N), but don't hold up work waiting for the gas resisting paints if they are not available.

Paragraph 4 states 'The basic colour of vehicles for use in Australia is Khaki Green No.3; those for the AIF being Light Stone BSC 61.'

The first issue of the ASC chart of colours including Khaki Green ASC J was December 1941. The ASC suite of colours were developed by the research organisation headed by Dakin which only came into existence in 1941, prior to the National Camouflage Regulations which were promulgated in August 1941.

To me, Mech Circ 301 clearly differentiates between the Khaki Green No.3 gas resisting paint, and the paints as listed in Standards Association (E) K.507, which included Khaki Green ASC J. As (E) K.507 was developed during 1941, and the chart first issued in Dec, it seems that the Army's KG3, prepared to MGO (Aust) 101 specification, predates by a couple of years, the existence of the Khaki Green ASC J as show in (E) K.507, rather than being a '3rd version of KG-J'.

A further interesting aspect is the experimental vehicle camouflage viewed at Wesley College. Melbourne on 13 June 1942, which was painted in Khaki-Green No.3 and Light Stone W. The report/memo concludes that the KG3 was too light and that it should be darkened to accommodate fading 'which is bound to take place'. Is this experiment the basis for darkening the colour of KG3?

I also have the E in Cs letter of 9 August 1942 wherein he refers to 'The basic colour for use in Australia in Khaki Green (ASC J) gas resisting', and in many other references at various levels from that date onwards, I see references to KG ASC-J as the basic colour, (rather than KG3) and Light Earth ASC W as the disruptive colour. (for example , 2 Aust Army Adm Instruction 35 of 15/9/42, and 1st Aust Army Circular 31/8/1942, the latter instruction being for a three-tone scheme of KG-J, Light Earth-W, and Blac- U - now that one really is different!)

By later in 1942, we see almost no reference to KG-J or KG3 in Army circulars, with a three tone scheme of Veh Dark Green, Veh Medium Green and Vehicle Grey being the basic camouflage scheme. This continues well into 1943, when the set of Army Design Directorate drawings were issued for the above three tone scheme. These are dated in May 1943.

The RAAF, interestingly, begin their camouflage deliberations (for vehicles) by referring to 'all vehicles in future to be finisihed in Khaki Green No.3, to the latest Army specifications ...' on 5 January 1942, but on 8/1/1942, their MT & Marine Craft Order 2/34 refers to 'Khaki Green J', as do all subsequent references, for example, in February 1942, they refer to 'Khaki Green Camouflage Paint J (Non Gritty) with a RAAF ref number K4/10091, a reference that remains constant for much of the ensuing few years. We see a change in December 1944, however, when RAAF Instruction 2/20 states the finish of RAAF vehicles will be 'Khaki Green Matt Synthetic Resin Based Enamel K4/10394'.

To sum up as I see the evidence I have:
(1) KG-3 is an Army colour that existed long before Professor Dakin's Dept of Home Security and his ASC colours, including KG-J, came into existence;
(2) Around mid-1942, Army start referring to KG -J in place of KG-3.
(3) The RAAF refer to the Army colour KG-3 only once that I've found, then quickly change to all references being KG-J.
(4) I have no references to the ASC set of colours being in existence prior to late 1941. (Dakin refers to developing colours in correspondence during 1941, and to not having addressed colour development for certain areas such as Darwin area, for example, but does not list the colours specifically by name.)

Regards

Mike

[Mrs Vampire]

Mike

Then if KG3 predates the 1942 colours what is its provenance given Mike Starmers work and the stark difference between UK KG3 according to his research and The Australian version that does look remarkably like toned down KGJ .

Is it the britisification of Australian army language??

My reading of the files indicates the Australian colour set came into existence in late 1941 so that coincides with your information. I will re-look up the Melbourne file next time I am down there hopefully with a spectrograph. I also read that the paint was too light and did not account for fading but the file I had that from was referring to J not 3 and I think it was also referred to in Dakins notes ...I have recently had those put online. Dakin makes clear the fading issue was particularly problematic with the paint made in Melbourne , other suppliers being sufficient fade resistant to pas the AS test. .

[Mrs Vampire]

"The earliest reference I have is the specification MGO 101 'Paint, Prepared for use, Khaki Green No.3. For application by Spraying. Specification to govern supply and Inspection Approved 5 May 1940.' It was issued as CS/1269 in Australia and was accompanied by a colour 'tint ship'."

doesn't seem to show up in the search engine. Do you have a BC or refrence number for it.

[Mrs Vampire]

"The earliest reference I have is the specification MGO 101 'Paint, Prepared for use, Khaki Green No.3. For application by Spraying. Specification to govern supply and Inspection Approved 5 May 1940.' It was issued as CS/1269 in Australia and was accompanied by a colour 'tint ship'."

doesn't seem to show up in the search engine. Do you have a BC or reference number for it.

[Dianaa]

Gina

I know its not within your era, but in your investigations have you found a supplier who can do the 1960s to 1980s Australian Olive Drab?

My Mk3 International is about to be repainted. This entered service in 1964 as Deep Bronze green but along with most other vehicles in the Army fleet was repainted to olive drab sometime after 1965 and this is the colour I would like to use.

The repaint colour for the Inters and Land Rovers of the time was a Wattyl Industrial finish NSN 8101-66-025-5003 with the Wattyl numbers: paint code = 151603.20 and part Number 8010/660255003 for the 20 litre drums. This paint was last purchased by Gary in 2010 but Wattyl have today advised it is no longer available.

Currently touch ups on my truck have been done with the available Protec 342-1166 - Camouflage Green however this is a component of the 1990's era AusCam and not correct for the Mk3 service period.

My preference is for a period correct colour for my own Mk3, a mates ex-Vietnam 17 Construction Mk3 and a M548 to do over the next couple of years, so do you have any ideas of a supplier?

Diana

[Mrs Vampire]

If that is the same paint that you supplied me a sample of and we decanted into 4 litre tins that is in the Florite data base and they can make it .

That paint was coultards Alkyd 405488 Camo Green 6477

Other wise provide me with a sample and we can spectrgraph it and get it into the data base. something bigger than about 4 inches square and as pristine as possible.

Exact matches for those paints is not a possibility anymore. From the Mid sixties the Army was playing around with pigments that gave the same infra red reflection as the foliage they were going to be used near. The pigments are generally not available.

The upshot is a re-matched paint will look identical save that in some light conditions will look different . Given others must have done this with Land Rovers especially and I have not heard an outcry about colour matching I guess the colour matching so far has been good enough to pass muster or some one still has some original supplies someplace.

I note the REMLR club has some chip-sets from the period . perhaps we could convince them to get them spectrographed and make the information generally available .

http://www.remlr.com/paint.html

[Dianaa]

Wattyl have come back to me a second time and suggested that the tinting color code still exists as "ADE Olive Drab" but the tint base paint isn't available.

They are suggesting using Paracryl IF540 and the Paracryl IF540 Mating Base. What do you think?

(had a bit of trouble reducing the matting MSDS to a size that would upload).

[Mike Cecil]

"Then if KG3 predates the 1942 colours what is its provenance given Mike Starmers work and the stark difference between UK KG3 according to his research and The Australian version that does look remarkably like toned down KGJ ." - there are two questions here, so, to the first:

I don't know the provenance of the Australian KG3. I agree it is different to UK KG3 (Mike's work), but was that simply a matter of 'variation to suit local conditions'? In other words, Aust didn't like the UK KG3, and mixed a version to suit local conditions? That's pure conjecture, of course: I have not studied that aspect or have anything archival to indicate that, I just accepted the fact that it existed, and, after exchanges with Mike many years ago, that it was purely 'Australian' with the only common factor being the name.

As to the second, rather than 'toned down KGJ', given the timing, you could look at it from the point of view that Dakin's team simply arrived at a similar colour in their research (and why wouldn't they? They were dealing with the same physical environment and camouflage challenges), and may well have 'modified' KG3 to become KG-J to align the colour more closely with their research results, ie, a 'better' version based on research. The ASC chart certainly lists KG-J as 'equivalent to Army KG-3' - it's written across the bottom of the colour chart page.

I haven't seen ref to KG-J fading (but also haven't looked for it, either): the only ref I have is to KG-3 and the suggestion to darken it, dated in June 42.

PM me with your postal address and I'll send you an Army Olive Drab colour sample chip from the 1960s/70s that might help you and Gina.

I'll look up the file ref with the KG3 chip in it and send it to you. The spec is buried in an MP729 file in Melbourne.

Nice work, Gina. Certainly thrashing out a few aspects on paint!

Mike

[Dianaa]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

If that is the same paint that you supplied me a sample of and we decanted into 4 litre tins that is in the Florite data base and they can make it .

That paint was coultards Alkyd 405488 Camo Green 6477
...<snip>

Hi Gina

You must have posted while I was writing my reply so I didn't see your one till today.

No the paint I gave you was later than the 1960s/70s.

When you go to places like the Corowa Swim-In you'll find lots of different hues being the paint restorers were able to find. e.g. My SIII FFR was painted by the previous owner who went to his local paint supplier who found a listing for Land Rover 1980 MoD Green and assumed this was the Australian Department of Defence colour when it's actually a British equivalent of NATO Green.

The issue for me is that my mate (and where I store my Mk3) was a RAEME craftsman in the 1970s and he doesn't like the colour match of Protec Camo Green etc he wants to use the Wattyl colour he used in service because it is the correct colour for the era.

If my vehicle is to live next to his and probably go out together it is better that they both match.

Will try to find a panel to spectrograph off.

[Mrs Vampire]

I feel confident Florite will give you as close a match as is currently possible with commercially available pigment.

I have been told Wattle have moved onto clear bases and new pigments to cut back on the number of colour bases they need to stock. In any case The pigment of the original is still likely to have IR properties.. The Army had been working on that even in the closing days of WWII. The Paracryl recommended seems to be a two pack paint that can't be glossed down below around 20%

I would recommend an Alcyd paint . Eggshell Gloss level (3%) is being used a lot for KG3 as it is maintainable in showroom condition for many years and rejuvenation with baby oil for shows. The original you are seeking was certainly dead flat ( less than 1%) Dead flat cannot be achieved with flatting agents or by mixers like Bunnings etc auto suppliers or even protec except at their factory in SA. .... The flatting agent for dead flat remains Talc and is now only done by factory mixers. Hence Florite or Proteck factories rather than agents and on sellers.

Dead flat of course will mark and scuff fairly easily ( as complained about during the wars) and also is susceptible to Glossing up in the event of oil spills and rubbing... For my own part I am going with dead flat. I want my tank and Gun Tractor to look used as they did when in action. I am not one for Factory show room finishes.

Recent developments with Army security etc etc mean some pigments are now considered not suitable for release for civilian use. But a colour sample and spectrograph will sort that out.

Gina

[Dianaa]

Thanks Gina will look for one.

Thought the M548 would be better in that colour too.

Diana

[Mrs Vampire]

Mike

The problems with the paint from Melbourne are mentioned in Dakins notes as well as a few other places.

I have all the files put on line and I think the links are in this thread. I especially paid to have the Dakin file in Sydney put on line as it contains his original hand written drafts. corrections and editing. Some of the stuff he decided to leave out of the final draft makes for interesting reading.

The file also contained the photos that accompanied the final version but not the pamphlets or the orders as held by the AWM. The orders are likewise very interesting reading.

My understanding was that prewar the vehicles were painted deep bronze green 24 as per the British army. Having seen Mike Starmers sample it seems very very dark indeed.
The photos of Carriers and the Mk VI Vickers seem to have them in a very dark green but Mikes looks a lot darker than even them ...almost black...his notes indicate I would be surprised if the mixing formula was followed and he was right. I was.
I had thought my Stuart was exported in that colour as it was made and exported under a British lend lease contract.Photos of M3A1 ariving in Australia show a very dark all over base colour.

The base colour of My Stuart is not American OD of any shade, Nor is it KG3 Australian or British and it is defiantly not s dark as Mike S' sample of DBG24 ,

My feeling at present is that it is an ACF version of British Camo green ...in a similar way to the Aircraft from the US being exported to British lend lease in Camo Colours of their own invention ( Curtis and Lockheed for instance )

[Mike Kelly]

There must have been many items apart from vehicles, painted in KG3 ?

This is a WW2 era Aust. made capacity meter . The front panel is a different colour than the box ???????? My guess is, a different manufacturer made the case . This item has never been repainted , I can guarantee that.

I have opened many WW2 Aust. wireless sets and the internals are generally clean and the paint is pristine . Mike

[Mike Cecil]

"My feeling at present is that it is an ACF version of British Camo green ...in a similar way to the Aircraft from the US being exported to British lend lease in Camo Colours of their own invention ( Curtis and Lockheed for instance )"

Yes, I think you are most probably right in that conclusion, particularly given the extent to which you have researched the subject.(I think we have all been pretty impressed with that!!)

I wasn't doubting that Dakin made comments about fading of KG-J: but I couldn't comment or add to that, as I hadn't seen those notes, only the one I had about KG-3, which I threw into the mutual information 'mix'.

I haven't spent a lot of time tracing cammo this last year - been a bit preoccupied finishing 'Leopard AS1' and 'Pioneers of Australian Armour'.

PM seen and answered: sample chips packed.

Regards

Mike

[Mark Mackenzie]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

"The earliest reference I have is the specification MGO 101 'Paint, Prepared for use, Khaki Green No.3. For application by Spraying. Specification to govern supply and Inspection Approved 5 May 1940.' It was issued as CS/1269 in Australia and was accompanied by a colour 'tint ship'."

doesn't seem to show up in the search engine. Do you have a BC or refrence number for it.

Gina,

Not 1269 but in Nigel Watson's Carrier book:

War Office to Canadian Military HQ dated 31 December 1940 .....

"Light stone agreed as the colour pattern for MT vehicles for the Middle East.

Camouflage Designs - IMT (SK) 1263 (Sheets 1-6), Ministry of Supply Specification MC 205J, Tint Plates, Khaki Green No.3, Control Shades 219 & 235."

This was sent from Dep.Nat. Def.,Ottawa to Can.Mil.HQ

"Paint Spec. CS/1289 Grey dark, CS/1276 Light green No.5 special, CS/1275 Light Indian red special, CS/1274 Dark Tarmac No.4 special, CS/1273 Light Sand special, CS/1272 Middle Stone special, CS/1193 Light Stone, CS/955 Ammonium Nitrate."

Cheers,
Mark

[Matt Stephenson]

Hi all,
First of all I have been following this thread with interest since its start, and I'm impressed by the level of research and dedication taken in pursuit of achieving historical accuracy. I've got nothing to add in respect to the research already undertaken, and look forward to seeing what arises. In respect to the recent discussion in this thread about early and late colour specifications, I may be able to offer an opinion.

While working on the restoration of my LP2, I have noticed that there appears to be two destinctive green paint coats on the lower hull, under the guards. I've noticed that the hull looks to have been originally painted in a darker version of a khaki green colour, and then later over painted (rather crudely) with a lighter version of a khaki green, and a disruptive pattern in a mid stone/sandy brown colour. The difference between the two greens is quite pronounced. That said, I can't account for deterioration and fading that has occured to the top coat in the ensuing years....

Futhermore, I've also heard that paint stocks delivered to maintenence units during the war, recieved paint that was fairly thick, almost in a paste like consistency and required thinning before application. As access to proper thinners wasn't always available, resourceful diggers used whatever was readily available. This could range from petrol, kerosene, aviation fuel or whatever else could be obtained. Obviously, depending on what was used as a thinning agent, it could have an effect on the chemical composition of the paint being applied, and consequently on the hue of the colour being applied and its appearance once dried. Unfortunately, this is ancedotal information only told to me by old diggers that served during the war. Furthermore, there wasn't too much concern about what colour paint was delivered or recieved by units, weather it was army spec, RAAF spec or USAAF paint, once an order was issued to repaint, whatever stocks were on hand was used.

Finally, for your consideration and comment, I've attached a pic of my LP2 hull showing the colour variations.

Thanks.

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Mark,

Interesting that NWs books contains Canadian ref to KG3, too, and the other numbers for colours are in the same spec sequence (CS/1289 dark grey, for example). 'CS' I think stands for 'Contract Specification", ie the requirements released to contractors for bidding and manufacturing purposes. The spec originated with the War Office, and I suggest Australia used the spec/method, but arrived at their own colour to suit local conditions. This last is speculative, of course.

Gina has recd the BC and ref numbers for the NAA file by PM.

Regards

Mike

[Big D]

Hi all,

I’ve been following this paint discussion since my last post and I thought this might have been of interest.

As per my previous posts I’m in the process of getting bits and pieces sandblasted and primed now in preparation for painting my AOP Scout Car.

Darrin has kindly sent me some paint samples which are yet to arrive but I’m hoping they will help me sort out a colour match for the Khaki Green and Light Stone or Light Earth pattern I am looking at.

I had a thought yesterday about the paint on the underside of the remaining tool locker door on the scout car. Not sure why I hadn’t thought of it before but I pulled it out today and looked at the paint on the back.

Being in a place not exposed to light and the weather, the surface is reasonably well undisturbed apart from a couple of places where something has been spilt on the paint and a couple of places where the paint is peeling off.

In a couple of areas the top layer of paint was flaking off so I did some work on those to see what was under them. The paint lifted quite easily and was quite flakey in a couple of places.

I’ve attached a few pictures of those areas. These pictures were taken outside in sunlight (not bright) and for the closeups, I wiped the surface with a damp cloth first.

Am I right in saying the top layer is likely to be the pre-1942 Khaki Green applied to the scout car?

Would that mean the darker green underneath would be the U.S. Olive Drab?

I can see what looks like the primer under the darker green where I’ve rubbed further.

This area under the locker door is completely different to the areas I had previously posted on and I don’t think it has been stripped and repainted like the other areas I photographed and uploaded here.

If it is the pre-1942 Khaki Green then that will be a good sample to work from.

I’ll be interested to see how the paint samples that Darrin has sent will compare with this.

[Mrs Vampire]

More on Paint .
I have a spare rear for my Ford Gun Tractor No 9. The paint on parts are pristine on other parts faded .

The paint is perfectly matched to Khaki Green No 3 Australian .
The paint has faded to the all to familiar Yellow that Khaki Green J fades to so from faded paint it is impossible to distinguish KG3 from KGJ.

Keith Webb has identified the part as having been made in September of 1944 which is consistent with the change to KG3 order of Dec 1943. My spare rear was a NOS spare recovered from Hughes trading in Coburg Melbourne in the seventies.

My earlier question was: given the huge stocks of paint held by the vehicle manufacturers would they have persisted with KGJ or followed the order and changed to KG3 ?? .
Although not conclusive evidence to hand supports the view that the change to KG3 was made in Dec 1943(they may have exhausted their stocks of KGJ by Sept 1944 and earlier relics I have viewed from 1944 appear to be KG3 from new. )
If the change to KG3 was made by Manufacturers in late 1943 early 1944 it rather suggests KGJ was able to be toned down to KG3. That also would support my theory that KG3 Australian was a a local colour and not an adaptation of British KG3 which Mike Starmers colour chips suggest was a quite different colour.

Dakin and other archive files make it clear that KGJ was toned down once in mid to late 1942 and again in the early part of 1943 . Perhaps a little bit more evidence that KG3 refers to the third version of KGJ .

A lot more is needed to absolutely nail all of this down but evidence from the artifacts and the archive seem to be pointing in this general direction.

Finally a match between my spare rear for the FGT and Bob Moseley's version of KG3 are identical, suggesting Bob had it absolutely right. I will compare that sample against the colour chip in the Melbourne Archive and nail it beyond question.

I think we are on safe ground with KG3 I am still in need of further evidence on the question of Light Stone and KGJ which I, at this point, think will only be resolved with spectrographic evidence from the archived samples. I am still of the View that the 2pdr anti Tank carrier in the Bandianana collection has it as right as is possible on the current evidence.
I am still of the view that the pre war and early 1940 to 1941 colour was bronze green No 24 as per the British Army specification.

[Mrs Vampire]

Hi Matt

The colours of your carrier suggest to me early KGJ and light stone over-painted Bronze Green No 24 suggesting this was an early manufactured carrier.
If it were made later than say June 1942 the deeper colour is a bit of a mystery to me, save to say the carrier makers may have persisted with the early bronze green longer than The records I have to hand suggest.

[Darrin Wright]

Interesting thread.
My LP1 BGC was produced at Newport Workshops in 1941 and issued to a Signals unit, 4th Div in Sept 41, Balcombe Vic.

There is a near new original paint sample under the dash, with a bit of a wash/clean up; I have tried to take some pics of it for this thread for identification and comparison.
I realise that lighting, camera settings and screen resolutions will/may vary the pictures. I have included a WD-40 can and orange shirt/rag in the pics to provide contrast & comparison.

Also included is my paint stirrer which is darker and I matched that NOS sample at the paint shop, that was aimed for Dec 41 to mid 42.

This sample has not been affected by light and has not been repainted.

Interested in comments.

[Mrs Vampire]

I reckon Khaki Green J early version as per AWM sample cards. Nice if you could get a spectrograph onto it .

[Mrs Vampire]

Some of my theories go down the gurgler as the latest trip to the archives reveals.

In the Mp742/1 series. 325/25/58 and 325/25/9 ( 453113 and 440398).

In may 1943 the specification for three tone camo was dark green , light green and grey. The diagrams do not specify exactly what shades are being referred to save to say the dark green was KG3 .
A tiny sample of KG3 is attached to the specification. Two things of note. The specification ,though being called up in 1943 is a 1940 spec dispelling any thoughts it is somehow connected to KGJ predating that colour by many months .

In file 61/8/20 Helmets Steel No 1 Mk2 specification 1942 the paint colour called for is KG3 .
Though a document identifying the origins of KG3 has yet to be found it is clear that it predates Dakin and the colour samples held in the AWM and other places.
The second thing to note: my samples of Bob Moseley's KG3 is near as damn to the original chip in the file. I have been given access to an original tin of KG3 and will mix up a sample chip from that for a final definitive result.
Where does that leave me in terms of my quest for authentic colours??
Some way to go to demonstrate without question the green on the Stuart was KGJ . No Doubt the Light stone was the Australian version (brownish) not the British ( desert yellow) however the files reveal many vehicles in Australia in 1940/41 were British Light Stone and the British spec is cited.(325/25/58)
I have paid to have the files put on line and will post links to them here when they are .

Big thanks to Mike Cecil for the tip of on the MP742 series. sixteen thousand files ...but the paint one was gold.

[Mrs Vampire]

Further to my last post.

The file referred to earlier BC 440598 contains in it Mechanized Circular 301 ( 2 Jan 1942). That circular refers to vehicles allocated to the AIF being painted Light Stone BSC61. That is vehicles used overseas ( North Africa etc)

It also refers to the use of KG3 being the base colour for vehicles stationed in Australia . My view that the pre 1942 colour was Deep Bronze Green 24 appears from this evidence to be incorrect. KG3 appears to be the initial colour.

The Circular goes on to specify the immediate application of disruptive camouflage. There are seven schemes specified using Khaki Green J , Light Stone N, Light Brown P Dark green M, Basalt Red S and Black U .

Five of the schemes are thee tone and two of them two tone . One corresponds to both the area and scheme of my Stuart.

The three tone scheme in the RAAF Parkes video comprising light stone , Khaki Green J and Basalt red is recommended and allowed by this 1942 order . The order also includes the over-painting of proprietary colours as used by oil companies as seen in the video.

The order appears to be consistent with everything people have observed on their vehicles . Things such as KG3 Being over-painted by lighter colours or disruptive. The variety of colour schemes being discovered that were used from Jan 1942 until late 1943 when disruptive was abandoned and KG3 once again became the standard colour.

The pattern of the schemes is quite precise and the method used to mark it out specified. This is consistent with the Disruptive pattern on my Stuart corresponding to the drawings in the specification.

This means spectrographs of the AWM and AA chip sets remains a high priority for me.

Finally on the matter of KG3 I have been loaned a can of 1944 KG3 by Ewan that i will have a sample made and spectrographed. That will be the final proof so far as that colour is concerned. The question remaining ...what is its origin?

Photos below include one of a LP2 carrier two tone scheme in KG3 and Light Earth attached to the MC301 specification that is not a specified scheme. So still lots of puzzling issues.