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  #1  
Old 17-09-13, 17:34
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Default WS19 guide for dummies?

Guys,

Is there something like a WS19 guide for dummies?

Like how do you tell a mk2 from a Mk3 on the outside (apart from the data plate)?...Are replacement decals/plates available if you want to restore the front panel?...Is there any way to trace when a set was roughly made and by who? Italian sets......only a matter of fixing the internals, fitting a Volt meter and replacing decals/plates????

I intend to fit a Canadian ws19 to my C8 in due time, and I am trying to get a little education on what to look for. Having no experience or knowledge on wireless sets, the available info on the web is sometimes hard to follow .....for me the inside only looks like Spaghetti with a few bulbs thrown in....


Alex
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Last edited by Alex van de Wetering; 17-09-13 at 17:53.
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  #2  
Old 17-09-13, 20:26
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Tim Bell Tim Bell is offline
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Try - Wireless for the Warrior Vol 2 - this has a wealth of info about the WS19 and others.

http://www.wftw.nl/

Tim
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  #3  
Old 18-09-13, 08:14
Bruce MacMillan Bruce MacMillan is offline
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As Tim said, WftW 2 has become the defacto source for wireless set info. It's not cheap but worth it.

As to quickly telling a MK II from a MK III just look at the row of toggle switches bottom front. Two switches is a MK II and three switches is a MK III.

For WW2 vehicles check and make sure there is a black thumbwheel beside the left hand handle. Many sets were modded by REME post war and had bits removed so wouldn't be period correct.
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  #4  
Old 19-09-13, 07:37
universalgrl universalgrl is offline
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Location: Comox BC
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Default 19 sets

My third WS-19 set was reconditioned by 202 b/wkshp RCEME in 1959. and it looks like the only thing done to it was a new faceplate in English only and non radioactive luminous compound.
So what does that do to the story of the Canadians showing up with Russian marked radios during the Cuban missile crisis???
My other 2 MK IIIs are an RCA Victor and a Northern electric, all three are marked RCA-107127-202.
I have EMER's (electrical and mechanical engineering regulations) for the MK II first echelon work, and the MK III 1st to 4th echelon work.
These can all be downloaded from the british WS-19 web site.
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Roberta Jayne Melville CD II QJ

MK I * universal carrier
1942 WLC Harley under restoration
1957 M38A1 jeep
R.E.L. optical equipment
Military manuals
Field phones
MK II 19 set (needs work)
4 MK III W-19 sets
AN/PRC-9
CPRC-26
WS-29 componets
WS-38 AFV
WS-38 MK III
WS-48 with generator
WS-58 MK I
MK V heliograph
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  #5  
Old 19-09-13, 11:58
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Tim Bell Tim Bell is offline
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Also consider Rob Van Meel in the Netherlands for reprint manuals:

http://www.robvanmeel.nl/

I've known Rob for years and can vouch for the quality of his product.

Cheers


Tim
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  #6  
Old 19-09-13, 22:12
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Tim, Bruce, Roberta,

Thanks for your replies and suggestions. Wireless for the warrior does indeed sound like the book series to have. 2.9kilo's for the second volume sounds like a huge amount of info, but for me the WTFW series is something for the future. For now I am just trying to get some pointers what to look for...
the basic principles on WS19's.
Thanks Bruce for your comments on the difference between mk2 and mk3 19 sets and the comments on post-war vs wartime configurations. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for!

p.s. I have seen this subject come by on the forum from time to time. Vehicle owners want a WS19 to finish off their truck or carrier restorations.....often just for visual purposes, but it's hard to find answers to some of the basic questions if you are not familar with Wireless sets or the technical side of radios.

Alex
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  #7  
Old 20-09-13, 04:41
universalgrl universalgrl is offline
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Default WS-19 sets

If You are going to have a fully operational WS-19 set as a base station or operate it in a restored vehicle it is highly recommended that you take a ham course mainly for legal reasons, fortunately you no longer have to do CW, MCW (that's Morse code) to pass the test.
The radio transmitters can be temperately or permanently disabled if you just need it for the intercom function, highly recommended in a noisy vehicle.
Word of warning DO NOT apply power to an untested radio / power supply that has been sitting in storage for a long time. The capacitors are the paper type and will dry out over time, applying power will result in a direct short.
This problem can be fixed by slowly applying power over a set time period to renew the electrolyte in the capacitors, or replace the caps with a modern equivalent.
Failure to do this procedure can cause all the smoke to leak out of the caps all at once sometimes referred to as the Big Bang. The large cap in the power supply is similar to a small grenade[ BOOM, shrapnel, concussion, shock] etc. etc.
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Roberta Jayne Melville CD II QJ

MK I * universal carrier
1942 WLC Harley under restoration
1957 M38A1 jeep
R.E.L. optical equipment
Military manuals
Field phones
MK II 19 set (needs work)
4 MK III W-19 sets
AN/PRC-9
CPRC-26
WS-29 componets
WS-38 AFV
WS-38 MK III
WS-48 with generator
WS-58 MK I
MK V heliograph
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  #8  
Old 20-09-13, 08:32
Bruce MacMillan Bruce MacMillan is offline
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Some 19 set (and other wireless sets) manuals are free to download from the VMARS group. Document 800 gives a basic view of the set.

http://www.vmarsmanuals.co.uk/archive/files_index.htm

The thing to remember is the 19 set is not just a radio but a system with many components. The set was issued as a basic setup with some ancillaries but the end user had to order the mounting kit separately for which ever vehicle it was destined for. These kits contained unique hardware, control boxes, cables, etc.

Sets mounted in CMPs were often fitted with the ground mount (big wooden board) so it could be relocated away from the truck.
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  #9  
Old 20-09-13, 17:32
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Thank you and more ????

Thanks Bruce for posting that very informative site. I am in the same boat as Alex..... want to play with one but not sure of what goes where. That 800 manual EVEN has pictures to guide people like Alex and I for at least a static display.

Now for my other ??? Roberta ..... how do you apply power slowly to sort of warm it up to life gain. I have the large 12/24 volt power supply and variable rheostat surplus from surplus NRC test beds ....... also the later 110 volt power supply....... any idea how much voltage for how long?? I am afraid that lower voltage will create a "brown out" effect that might cause its own damage.

I understand they generate a lot of heat so with long Winter evenings coming I can play with the 19 set and add to the warmth of the house hihihi!!! but not smoke up everything.

Bob C
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  #10  
Old 20-09-13, 18:43
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Default Bob

Congrates on being a 19-Set owner, but be warned, once bitten by these things you will discover the amazing list of bits to add to it! I got my first one in 1976 and have gone through about 2 dozen since. Still have a Mk II Cdn and Mk III Cdn.

I have heard the caps can be tricky on this and similar older sets but have personally never run across a bad one in all the sets I have fired up. I have heard of more problems from sets that have been tinkered with and sometimes that is obvious to spot. A couple of things I would suggest:

Clean the inside of the set and P/S of all dust before applying power. Take this opportunity to pull all valves and inspect them for loose fitting glass. Find somebody with a tube tester to check all valves.

When you fire it up for the first time, do so with the chassis of the set out of the case and remove the bottom cover if still present. Prop the front edge of the set up on a couple of small blocks so you can monitor what goes on underneath and on top of the set and be prepared to pull the power if you have to in a hurry.

I would not recommend ever using the B-Set. In todays radio spectrum, the frequency it was designed to operate in lies in the middle of modern aviation frequencies and the signal is not a clean one. In fact, a friend of mine just recently discovered there is an FM component to the B-Set signal, which is interesting in it's own right, but can complicate things even more today.

Lastly, you mention you have a 110V Supply. Do you mean the RCA 19-Set A/C Supply? If so, you have a real gem there. There were not many made and even fewer spare parts. If you know it works, be VERY happy with that knowledge, but don't use it to drive your 19-Set. It should run with a rather quiet hum. The older it gets and the wonkier the components, the more noise it will start to make, and then it will just quit. There are just not enough surviving to get original replacement parts to fix one to original status.

Your best power supply bet is to find the A/C Supply that was used with the C42 Set Ground Stations (CPP-2). It will give you the choice of 12 or 24 V DC at 22 or 11 amps, and they do throw enough heat to keep a mug of coffee warm on top of it.

The 19-Set will take about 20 minutes or so to stabilize temperature wise when fired up, depending on outside ambient temperature. During this time, they are prone to drifting off frequency a bit, but once they settle in they're fine.

Enjoy and keep us posted.


David
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  #11  
Old 20-09-13, 23:58
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Power supplies.

Hi David

Yes I have stumbled on two RCA 110v. power supplies, look good, claimed to be working ..but never tried them yet.

I also have the CPP 12/24 volts more recent power supplies.

All my time is tied up on firewood and prep for the coming Winter but should fine some spare time when it gets colder outside.

Will do a visual inspection of the insides and gently blow any dust away before any live power is applied.

I played with them when I was a kid in the 50s...... my dad bought a truck load which was dumped very unceremoniously in our back yard...... literaly dumped from a sand truck........ I remember the argument he had with my dear Mom.......they use to sell for $25 as is or running for $75........ my dad repaired radios/tv in his spare time.....

Transport Canada used to have guys on the road with plain grey American motors station wagon with a loop antenna on the roof.......Mr. Tibeault was one of them who visited my dad's place quite often.....used to pump my dad for leads on who had bought them..... they use to inteferre with civvy taxi and Hull concrete truck dispatchers radios of the time...... and C42 made black zebra bars on channel 13 just right when they scored a goal all you had to do was key the mike...... also had a nice daughter ....Betty....I had the hots for....

Sorry we got rid of all his tube testers..... but I still have the device Dad made out of the rotary transformer from the 19 power supplies.... he used the output to burn his initials on his tools.....VAC with all 3 letters overlapped..... I still have his Halicrafter SX99 receiver and separate speaker enclosure.

Ah for the good old days.

Cheers
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  #12  
Old 21-09-13, 08:10
Bruce MacMillan Bruce MacMillan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Carriere View Post
Hi David

Yes I have stumbled on two RCA 110v. power supplies, look good, claimed to be working ..but never tried them yet.

Cheers
Don't plug the power supplies in just yet. Try to find a local ham operator or someone with a tube tester. That power supply uses 4 rectifier tubes that are prone to shorting. They should be tested first as when they short the nearest thing to a fuse is a transformer winding. If a winding burns out you've changed a rare item into a common boat anchor.

I use mine as a daily driver but bring it up with a variac avoiding inrush current.

As to using the CPP2 it should work for receiving but when switching to transmit the dynamotor can draw up to 50 amps while it spins up. I don't know if it would supply enough current. Maybe David has tried it.

Like David I've owned a lot of 19 sets over the years and have found that for most part the radio itself worked quite well as is, even after 70 years. The power supply has the big capacitor that needs some tlc.

When it gets time to play you may find some local help through the original 19 set site. http://www.qsl.net/ve3bdb/
A lot of the members are in southern Ontario so help could be close by.

Have fun and remember the one hand rule.
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  #13  
Old 22-09-13, 03:29
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Default Bruce

An Amateur friend of mine has run his 19-Set Mk III for a number of years now on a CPP-2 with no problems, and tested mine out for me as well. The startup does not seem to phase the CPP-2 at all.


David
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  #14  
Old 22-09-13, 08:07
Bruce MacMillan Bruce MacMillan is offline
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Thanks David, that's good to know. I suspect it works because it is not a regulated supply. It is a "brute force" item that has only a rectifier & filter. Most people that have issues are using a modern electronic regulated supply and they shut down due to inrush current.

I used to run mine from a couple of cheap 12V car batteries from Canadian Tire.

Due to shipping regs I had to leave them behind. I'll have to find a local "English Tyre" store and replace them.
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  #15  
Old 22-09-13, 16:54
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Variac.....

Hi Bruce.

Could you give me a brief idea on how you wire in and use the variac to gradually warm up your set.

Bob C.
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  #16  
Old 22-09-13, 18:06
Bruce MacMillan Bruce MacMillan is offline
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Default variac.....

Hi Bob,

The variac I use is a variable transformer complete with AC power cord & socket. I plug the WS19 AC supply into the socket and the cord into a 240-120 stepdown xfmr. Remember the UK is 240V not 120V.

As the supply is actually rated for 110VAC I slowly turn up the voltage to 110VAC. This only takes about 5 seconds but it eliminates the instant on inrush current to the primary. Without going into a whole lot of electronic theory this has worked for me for years.

These variable transformers can be had from dealers like Electrosonic, Digikey or Mouser.

Here's a thought for you guys in Ontario that have get togethers. Why not have a 19 set workshop where people can learn & have a hands on experience. Mr Parker, Mr Skagfeld??
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  #17  
Old 23-09-13, 18:44
Bob Carriere Bob Carriere is offline
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Default Wine and cheese with 19 set on the side....

.....sounds like a good idea. I know Jon gave us some very interesting information sessions on the use of the 19 set back when the Caldswel annual convoy exisited.

Need to verify what kind/capacity "variac" I have to play with.

Bob C.

PS... how complicated would an online session be to setup organize.....with each participants sitting with his computer/laptop and own 19 set in front of him...?
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Last edited by Bob Carriere; 28-09-13 at 00:03.
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  #18  
Old 26-09-13, 23:01
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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All,

Thanks for the interesting comments and links. Indeed those online manuals come in handy, although I do have to study the proper terminology to make sence of it all.

Bob, glad I am not the only dummy here No serious....I think this is a common "problem" for MLU-ers....we want the vehicles to look the part and a Wireless set is an essential part for a lot of vehicles.

So, does anyone have experience with the Italian WS19 sets? I know they were plentiful in the late 90's and they still come up for sale quite often. From what I have heard they are Canadian mk3 sets that were rebuilt by the Italians post-war. Most had the faceplate replaced by one with Italian lettering. So, is the faceplate painted over or completely swapped?. Does anyone make new faceplates and decals so you can change the faceplate back to the proper look?

Apart from the lettering next to the switches, Voltmeter etc.....does anyone make new "Canada" decals?


Alex
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  #19  
Old 28-09-13, 16:56
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Default Alex

With regard to the decals applied to the front of the 19-Set, the wartime, and early 1950's RCEME Shop Rebuild manuals for the Set reference use of a decal sheet for redoing the transceiver face plate. The process was to strip the faceplate and repaint it the pale grey colour. A stencil was then placed over the plate. This stencil had cutouts on it locating the places where the luminous paint was applied. Next, the decals were applied over the appropriate patches of luminous paint. Finally, a clear coat varnish was applied over the whole face plate. There is some debate today as to whether or not this varnish was clear or tinted a slight yellow. I have a Mk III Cdn Set that had a mint, yellowish looking face plate and tried a little liquid car polish on the edge of it. The yellow came off and a nice bright grey showed up. I am assuming the yellow tint was the product of many years accumulation of cigarette smoke building up on the front of the set.

Initially, the replacement decal set was the original multi lingual version. At some point in the late 40's or 50's, an English only version came into use here in Canada. I don't know the exact date of that transition, but in all likelihood, old stocks were used up before the new ones came on line.

As for the Canada Decal, that seems to be uniquely a wartime production item. There is no reference to it being reapplied in subsequent rebuilds. It came in a great range of sizes, right up to a 6 or 8 inch version applied to doors of CMP's and sides of Carriers built in Canada during the war for export. I have even seen it applied to wooden shipping crates.

Just took a quick rummage in my manuals filing cabinet. If you are serious about overhauling a 19-Set, the manual to track down is the Canadian Army EME Instructions Manual - Telecommunications F 254/3. Later versions were renamed - Electrical F 254/3. I have seen copies of it dated from 1944 all the way up to 1957. It's the bible for these sets. The fancy title for the manual is: WIRELESS SET CANADIAN No. 19 Mk III, 2nd - 4th ECHELON WORK

Interestingly, the very first section of the manual lists the Test Equipment needed to completely overhaul and tune the 19-Set. The types of equipment stay the same over time, but the models of each change as better test sets were developed. Between a friend of mine and me, we have a fairly extensive collection of test equipment from the 1940's through to today. A number of years back, we took a 19-Set Mk III and tuned it according to the above noted manual using nearly all wartime test equipment. We got a very good response from the set. We then retuned the set to the specs in the manual using the most modern test equipment available to us. The improvement in the performance of the 19-Set was amazing! An observation for what it is worth.

David
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