Ontario Museum buys fake German vehicles

[jdmcm]

I think it was pretty common knowledge that a lot of the vehicles at Auburn were basically fabricated replicas, I think they have been sued previously for a bunch of things, and certainly Kruse Auctions has, hopefully they get their money back

http://www.journalgazette.net/news/l...wwii-artifacts

9296411939_d6cb906880_b.jpg kruse_21.jpg kruse_14.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Well John, what can we say but "buyer beware"? The inaccuracies on many of these vehicles are well known since they went on display decades ago at the Victory Museum at Arlon, Belgium. A few evenings searching on the internet and consulting with specialists could have prevented a "bad buy".

Originally Posted by jdmcm

http://www.journalgazette.net/news/l...wwii-artifacts
"Other authenticity issues include [...] a “Made in Germany” inscription – written in English – on one of the vehicle's headlights.

“Given that Germany and Britain were enemies in World War II, the Germans neither exported their products to Britain nor issued them to troops who primarily spoke English,” the authenticity report states. “The English headlight inscription therefore readily demonstrates the falsity of the light itself and the museum's vehicle as a whole.

Ahem... the "Made in Germany" trademark has been in use for more than 125 years!
Ref. http://www.dw.com/en/125-years-of-ma...any/a-16188583

HTH,
Hanno

[45jim]

The real tragedy here is that the money wasted on these fakes will never be fully recovered, lawyers will see to that.

The "specialists" enlisted to determine the authenticity and value of these vehicles on behalf of the buyer should be hung by their short and curly's as the whole military vehicle collecting world knew they were fakes long before they hit North American shores. German military vehicles are among the most researched and documented of any WW2 nation. No excuse.

I feel for the actual "buyer" who put very good money out on poor advice and now is left fighting a court battle in the US. I am sure he feels abused as his money was used in such a cavalier way by people who would never spend their own money in such a flippant manner.

Next time he should enlist proper "subject matter experts" to assist him. They are out there.

[Jon Bradshaw]

I am not an expert but I like to play devils advocate.....

Some of the things listed as problems could be honest field available fixes.
Road wheels/ chassis on the Maultier could have been harvested from captured universal carriers. Captured from BEF in France, like many French vehicles, they were likely pressed into service as usable equipment/ chassis for modification. Some wheels could have ended up on a Maultier with American production markings. The pic of a Ford Maultier unloading a ME323 shows clearly a Vickers 1930's style suspension and road wheels. Since the Panzer 1 was based on a Vickers 1930's tank the road wheels could have been copied and compatible. (not sure as I don't have one to compare)
I also believe that at least a few Ford plants built prior to 1939, were operating in Europe during the war under German control. One huge one just outside Cologne made trucks and cars since 1931. The end result could have meant that English markings were on molds and metal stamps from before the war. There are pics of German Maultier cargo trucks (not rocket) made from Ford trucks operating on the eastern front.
Firestone had a plant in England through the 1930's but other than a partnership with Ford I can find no evidence of a plant in Europe proper.
Goodyear operated in partnership with Zepplin until 1940 and dissolved the partnership due to the war. Not sure what they made besides airships.

This is an interesting problem for the museum since as was already mentioned it is buyer beware. I wonder if the case could be further investigated along the thoughts I have put forward. The maultier could in fact be mostly original parts, even if poorly re-assembled and missing proper mounting hardware for the weapons?

Again I am not saying these ones are not fakes, just that a few more parts could be legitimate. They could have been assembled from a few different vehicles. Mounting hardware may have been impossible to find so was simply welded into place to make a static display.

The people who know more about this will no doubt chime in here.

As 45Jim says- The "specialists" enlisted to determine the authenticity and value of these vehicles on behalf of the buyer should be hung by their short and curly's as the whole military vehicle collecting world knew they were fakes long before they hit North American shores.

The fault in this lays with the ones they paid to check out the vehicles, they get paid to know the difference.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jon Bradshaw

I am not an expert but I like to play devils advocate.....

Some of the things listed as problems could be honest field available fixes.
Road wheels/ chassis on the Maultier could have been harvested from captured universal carriers. Captured from BEF in France, like many French vehicles, they were likely pressed into service as usable equipment/ chassis for modification. Some wheels could have ended up on a Maultier with American production markings. The pic of a Ford Maultier unloading a ME323 shows clearly a Vickers 1930's style suspension and road wheels. Since the Panzer 1 was based on a Vickers 1930's tank the road wheels could have been copied and compatible. (not sure as I don't have one to compare)

Jon,

It is a common misunderstanding that the German Maultier used British Light Tank/ Universal Carrier components. Indeed they were patterned on British components, but they were different - see e.g. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ltier#post5666

HTH,
Hanno

[jdmcm]

I sure hope the Jagdpanzer 38 Sdkfz 138/2...or incorrectly the "Hetzer" that is being restored in Europe for the same museum has been verified to be an actual WW2 German vehicle and not the more common post war G13. There are very few genuine wartime Jagdpanzer 38's around and many are post war versions "back dated" and restored as WW2 German units. Price can be an indicator as actual German Jagdpanzer 38's are usually valued about 4 times the price of a G13, last restored example with actual WW2 provenance was over 400k Euro. My advice would be to spend a few extra bucks and consult Hillary Doyle, Bruce Crompton or Kevin Wheatcroft. Well worth the money to save yourself getting taken by a well crafted fake.

[rob love]

Other authenticity issues include rivet-style metal heads welded onto the body where rivets should have been used.....

It is one thing to have to replace a plate of steel that was badly mangled on a range wreck, or possibly battle damaged vehicle, but quite another to be welding rivet heads to replicate riveting. Not a good sign.

[James P]

And this purchase should be held up as a cautionary tale as to doing ones due diligence and research before committing to the purchase, at the least book a flight down to get eyes on the vehicles and actually know what is before you on offer.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Oh boy.....

I thought everybody knew most of the armoured Maultier was fabricated....the top of the hull with all the wrong angles and measurements and the complete tracks and bogies from a T16.

Same with the Marder....I think it's a Swedish chassis which is slightly longer and has two return rollers in stead of one. Superstructure and PAK could be original though.

I have to agree with Hanno though on the "made in germany" lettering. Dunlop had a factory in Germany, that did produce tyres for half tracks and aircraft ....and I believe it said "Dunlup, made in Germany" on the sides.
But Firestone and Good year....mosty likely T16 carrier parts.


Alex

[Douglas Greville]

When I read through the list of complaints what sticks out to me is that most of the things listed would be obvious to most people. Granted you need to know your specifics for things like armour angles. But the anorak detail of whether or not a real Marder has 2 return rollers or one is pretty obvious if you pull up any WW2 photo of a Marder.

A quick google search would reveal sites such as "Surviving Panzers" etc.

We all know that WW2 was now 73 years ago and there weren't many German vehicles survived it. Heck, just look at the Littlefield Panther (which the museum in question would know about) - Jacques had to get a complete new fabrication for the turret. Would they get sniffy that that vehicle is not authentic enough?

There seems to be a lot more to this story than in that article.

To me it has all the makings of a lawyer fest.

If you buy at auction you need to read the fine print and if that fine print includes an escape clause that essentially says the seller guarantees nothing, then buyer beware applies. I cannot count the number of times I have seen
sale lots misdescribed at auction, actually in my experience it is the norm not the exception.

But as to the difference between and G13 and a real Hetzer, 10 minutes spent on the internet would soon educate even the most wet behind the ears armour enthusiast. Then he too can own a vehicle that has to be driven with a view of the world no better than looking out through a letter box slot.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I'm curious what happens now (or has happened?). Does the museum take possession of the vehicles? Do they try and re-sell them? Keep them?

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

I'm curious what happens now (or has happened?). Does the museum take possession of the vehicles? Do they try and re-sell them? Keep them?

The pieces were on the floor when I visited a year ago. The guides were polite and clear that the vehicles were not genuine wartime examples. Considering all the other priorities in the hangar, I don't expect that these will get much attention for a while.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

This must be embarrassing for the museum, but it raises interesting questions.

Almost no historic MV's are completely original and, if so, are probably unusable with considerable 'patina'. The rest contain some degree of restoration ranging from replacement, but original, parts to complete fabrications based on the barest of original bones. Fabrication is sometimes the only way to go and it's the research, skill and detail of the fabricator that makes all the difference.

The other direction is willful adapting away from original for practical reasons: original parts are unavailable, original parts are unreliable or it's just the restorer's choice to do it up to the level they want.

It is up to the purchaser to decide what level of authenticity they want to invest in. Is a 12V conversion acceptable? Mild steel replacement armour? A modern diesel instead of the old flathead? Cosmetic rather than original? And my bugaboo, gloss paint instead of matt? There's all of these out there, and it's all good unless something is misrepresented. Not sure how much responsibility there is on the part of the buyer when that happens. It seems dropping big money should come with a fair bit of caution and research.

[Douglas Greville]

Bruce, regarding the paint. For anyone that wants to have a lasting restoration then gloss paint is necessary to form an impermeable barrier. But it just requires a coat of flat or matt over that to get the correct look.

The reason WW2 vehicles were so prone to rust is that the flat paint was porous as was the red zinc undercoat. So moisture wicked through the paint layers. This explains why you can pick up a part that appears ok but when the paint is cleaned back there is surface rust on the metal.

The other issue with matt, especially on vehicles (usually armour) where diesel and oil are spilled or where oil is necessary to keep hatch hinges etc working is that the oil soaks into the paint. They get grubby really quickly
and it is a losing battle to try and get the oil out of the paint. Hence why a lot of people prefer to do their restoration with either semi-gloss or gloss paint in order to be able to keep the vehicle looking nice.

Regards
Doug

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Douglas Greville

Bruce, regarding the paint. For anyone that wants to have a lasting restoration then gloss paint is necessary to form an impermeable barrier. But it just requires a coat of flat or matt over that to get the correct look.

The reason WW2 vehicles were so prone to rust is that the flat paint was porous as was the red zinc undercoat. So moisture wicked through the paint layers. This explains why you can pick up a part that appears ok but when the paint is cleaned back there is surface rust on the metal.

The other issue with matt, especially on vehicles (usually armour) where diesel and oil are spilled or where oil is necessary to keep hatch hinges etc working is that the oil soaks into the paint. They get grubby really quickly
and it is a losing battle to try and get the oil out of the paint. Hence why a lot of people prefer to do their restoration with either semi-gloss or gloss paint in order to be able to keep the vehicle looking nice.

Regards
Doug

I know...I know...I know...but....

[Peter Samsonov]

This is sadly a very common phenomenon. I see a ton of T-34s getting sold as "the real deal" that are actually post-war Polish or Czechoslovakian production. It's not even very difficult to tell the difference, but unscrupulous sellers will try to press it into the hands of an unsuspecting buyer anyway.

[Ed Storey]

Weather it is fake badges or fake vehicles, there always seems to be someone who can fall prey to not understanding what they are purchasing.