USMC Ford/Marmon-Herrington

[Bill Murray]

Hanno:

I thought I had already sent these, but maybe not.
First one is the "beauty shot"

Bill

[Bill Murray]

This one is "in action" in Iceland in my dad's outfit.
These are the definitive USMC variant and I realize the body is not exactly what you are looking for. I will continue to look for other photos tonight.

Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
I thought I had already sent these, but maybe not.

Bill,

Thanks for the pics. Indeed you've shown them before, but these scans are of superior quality.

Up in the snow masses of Iceland, your dad must have loathed the USMC's choice for vehicles without any form of foul weather equipment!

H.

[Bill Murray]

Evening Hanno:

My, up late aren't we. Is the bambino keeping you up???

I am finally getting more or less OK with my scanners and the now 4 different software programs to try to offer better photos.
If one doesn't do the job, I try another and if you bear with me I will eventually figure it all out.

Your comment about the foul weather gear is spot on. Dad used to remark that the US Army has always had troops dedicated to "winter warfare" but they were never ready when needed and the Marines almost always trained for tropical or desert conditions but they were always ready to go and went.
This was very evident in Korea. When they arrived in July/August, the Marines were pretty well equipped for the climate and weather, absenting heat prostration problems with the troops. When they got sent up north in Nov/Dec, they were rather ill equipped for the weather at the Chosin Reservoir.
I am still searching my photos for some more stuff for your project.
Cheers
Bill
Oh, please try to get some sleep.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
This one is "in action" in Iceland in my dad's outfit.

Here´s another "in action" shot of this type of truck at Gualdalcanal - according to the ad, that is.

H.

Picture source: 1943 Ford Marmon Herrington Ad MacArthur Guadalcanal (eBay Item number: 6514040369)

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

What type of front diff is that on the 6 x 6 in the advert please? I canot tell if it is a Ford split-type or Timken-type banjo.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
What type of front diff is that on the 6 x 6 in the advert please? I canot tell if it is a Ford split-type or Timken-type banjo.

David, it´s one of the big pre-war Marmon-Herrington trucks. They did not use Ford components but heavy duty components, no doubt bought from specialist manufacturers.

H.

[Bill Murray]

Hanno:
Did you just flip that pic to show the front diff better??
Looks like same truck but went from LHD to RHD.
That is one of the Iranian Arty trucks as far as I remember.
Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Did you just flip that pic to show the front diff better??
Looks like same truck but went from LHD to RHD.
That is one of the Iranian Arty trucks as far as I remember.

It's just like I got it from someone who sent to me some scans from Hanley's The Marmon Heritage. I wouldn´t be surprised if the MH PR department flipped it for inclusion in the ad.

It was indeed an Persian artillery tractor as far as I can recall.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
It was indeed an Persian artillery tractor as far as I can recall.

According to Vanderveen Marmon-Herrington delivered DSD400-6 and DSD800-6 6x6 artillery tractors to Iran in 1940. Besides this a relative large number of vehicles including scout and armoured cars, 4x4 and 6x6 trucks and prime movers, etc. were sold from 1932/33 until 1940.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
big pre-war Marmon-Herrington trucks ... use ... heavy duty components, no doubt bought from specialist manufacturers

Their heavy duty trucks, for oil field and military use, were normally fitted with Hercules engines and Fuller transmissions and transfer cases. I don't know details about the axles (though they used Timken axles for some models). Marmon-Herrington was what we tend to call an integrator today, assembling vehicles to user specs from components bought from outside suppliers (come to think of it, they still are!).

The cab pictured below is a good example: it was made by Trailmobile and called the Highland Cab #17038. It is shown fitted to a 1940s 4x4 Marmon-Herrington truck with Commercial 3yd multi-position dump box with hoist (it was auctioned on eBay February last year when it fetched US $504.99).


Edit: note from Dan Eakins

From what I can piece together this is a 1946ish 26,000 lbs GVW Maron Herrington 4x4. It has dual rear wheels had a Continental Engine. The cab is called a "Highland Cab" that was manufactured by Trailmobile.

It is not a conversion but a completely assembled MH that was their largest Post War truck available. Funny thing is that in the 50's they did not offer it in the brochures, it seems like the larger Ford trucks made it unnecesary.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
First one is the "beauty shot"

Back to where this thread started; Crismon in U.S. Military Wheeled Vehicles lists this truck under the 1½-ton 4x4 section, noting the chassis was known as 09T/MH and was photographed in October 1940. (Ford's model 09-T is a 1½ Ton Truck with 134" wheelbase chassis and 95 hp V8 engine.)
I have no idea how many of these Ford/M-H's the USMC had, but we know they rode 'em hard all the way up to Iceland and down to Gualdalcanal! They must have put them away wet, as during 1942-1945 the very similar International M-2-4 was the USMC's main 1-ton truck. Or was this simply because International Harvester was the prime-contractor for all-wheel-drive trucks for the USMC? Being one of the big auto manufacturers, I've always wondered why Ford played such a secondary role during WW2.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Back to where this thread started; Crismon in U.S. Military Wheeled Vehicles lists this truck under the 1½-ton 4x4 section, noting the chassis was known as 09T/MH and was photographed in October 1940.

Another pic from Bill, this time a ½-ton 4x4 based on a 1940 Ford Commercial chassis, with the same no-frills USMC personnel or weapons carrier body. Again, this type was ousted by an International truck, the ½-ton 4x4 M-1-4.

H.

[nuyt]

Hanno, this looks like a rhd truck, similar to the ones ordered by KNIL?
Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
this looks like a rhd truck, similar to the ones ordered by KNIL?

Not sure if it's a right-hand drive truck, but the basic ½-ton 4x4 chassis (as if they come more basic!) is clearly the same as used for the KNIL's Light Anti-Aircraft Machine Gun Truck.

H.

[Bill Murray]

In no particular order:

I do not know if the Netherlands had access to the USMC Ford/MH trucks for evaluation but I do know that the USMC trucks were all LHD.

I agree with Hanno that the pic of the Persian arty tractor, the second one, was probably a mistake on the part of the MH advertising dept. As far as I know all Persian vehicles were LHD.

Hanno, as to Ford not producing the volumes of military trucks compared to the other US makers, this is a long subject, perhaps not for this particular thread.

However, I can add this much. In the US, we had something called the War Production Board which determined which companies would be the best choice for producing which products.
Similar organizations existed in the UK, Russia and of course, the famous Herr Speer ran his own show in Germany.

A Google search will tell you more than you want to know about this process in the US, but the short version is that for whatever reason, probably a little of Henry Ford's change of heart to renounce his "neutral" stance and in part because of Ford's demonstrated mastership of mass production, Ford was chosen to build aircraft, more specifically bomber aircraft.

Amongst other things, this resulted in the building of the Willow Run complex that turned out B-24 and later B-29 aircraft in truly mind boggling numbers.

Luckily, the US had sufficient capacity from manufacturers other than Ford to manufacture enough trucks for the US effort and Canada, thank goodness, had also the same capacity but in this case Ford was a major player as regards vehicles.

Editorial comment:
The two MH USMC official pics on this thread were dug up by me in the USMC archives and passed on to both Bart and Fred Crismon.
As regards IHC taking over of the Ford MH business for the USMC, I have from BGEN USMC Fred Robillard himself a lot of the original file materiel of IHC's proposal to the USMC and a couple of sales prospectus binders with photos, data etc.
It is not really well known, but IHC had a fairly good relationship with both USMC and USN both before and after WWII.

Well, time to eat so will sign off for now.
Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
The two MH USMC official pics on this thread were dug up by me in the USMC archives and passed on to both Bart and Fred Crismon.

Good to hear about the source of these pictures! Bart printed the first one, captioned:

Truck, 1½-ton, 4x4, Cargo and Personnel (Ford 09T/Marmon-Herrington)
V-8-cyl., 95-bhp, 4F1Rx2, wb 134 in. One of many Ford trucks converted to all-wheel drive by Marmon-Herrington. This 1940 model was used by the USMC as Truck, 1½-ton, 4x4, Reconnaissance. Similar body on IHC 1-ton 4x4.

Noteworthy is that the rear body is stencilled "CAP. 2000 LBS" so it really was a 1-ton truck...

Further, Bart only lists the ½-ton truck as the Ambulance version, I guess the Cargo and Personnel version never made it into service.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
As regards IHC taking over of the Ford MH business for the USMC, I have from BGEN USMC Fred Robillard himself a lot of the original file materiel of IHC's proposal to the USMC and a couple of sales prospectus binders with photos, data etc.

Bill, when time permits I'd like to learn more about the content of these files. I wonder if the Cargo and Personnel body as fitted to the Ford and IHC trucks was a USMC design? At least it seems it was designed to fulfull their specifications. Anything about that sort of information in those files?

For now, I leave you with a colour picture of a line-up of IHC M-2-4 1-ton cargo trucks:


Source: http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/marines/aam; also see http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/marines/aao, http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/marines/aan and http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/marines/aal

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
It is shown fitted to a 1940s 4x4 Marmon-Herrington truck with Commercial 3yd multi-position dump box with hoist

Seems this ad shows the same truck, Dan Eakins was right about it being of 1946 vintage (source eBay item 6518179964])

[nuyt]

According to the caption with this NEI picture (see the Overvalwagen Forum) this Ford GP is towing its "competitor".
What truck is that to the left? Could it be the elusive Ford/M-H light truck? Compare the headlights, the seats, is this some 1940/41 commercial model under trial by KNIL? Or am I seeing things?

[Bill Murray]

Evening Nuyt:

Well, it is difinitely a 1940 Ford Kubel of some sort.

Not having the magazine to hand, it is hard to tell but the uniforms look rather American to me. Can you give us what the caption says and perhaps fiddle around with the image to get a better view of the second vehicle. You have the original so it would come out better if you did it. I will also have a look see to see if I can come up with something similar. I do not think it is that other Ford/MH you are seeking info on but I can certainly be wrong.
Cheers
Bill

[Bill Murray]

Speaking of Marmon Herrington Fords, would not anyone want to have this beauty in their garage.
Bill

[nuyt]

I did fiddle with the pic but it does not help much.
I still think it might be a Ford/M-H machineguntruck.
It looks like a mg mount to the right of the driver.
The windscreen is similar to MH's.
Dunno...

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

When the Canadians were considering 4-wheel drive for 3-tonners in late 1939, it was revealed that Eaton's 1940 Model axle was preferred as it was stronger than the '40 Ford's but special gearing was required as the front axle was a 'Ford Standard'. Thus the M-H conversion or one of them was based at the time on a Ford front axle.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Back to where this thread started......
I have no idea how many of these Ford/M-H's the USMC had, but we know they rode 'em hard all the way up to Iceland and down to Gualdalcanal! They must have put them away wet, as during 1942-1945 the very similar International M-2-4 was the USMC's main 1-ton truck.

There is an interesting International M-2-4 on e-bay at the moment. Is this an original vehicle? The lines of the cab appear more '30s-ish to me.

[cliff]

Tony it looks to me as though someone has done a rather professional job of adding a closed cab to the normally open cabbed inter.

cheers
Cliff