Morris C8

[pauldavies]

Guy's I am in need of some tips on how to remove the Cylinder Head from my C8 engine, the engine was still turning last month but now is solid. Seems the plug on no4 port was loose and water has gotten in which turned to corrosion and jammed everything, I removed the sump and all looks good but no4 piston is the culprit. I have poured diesel in the plug hole which does seem to be holding the liquid and I will leave for a few more weeks yet. I had a go at lifting the head but no movement yet so if any one has any ideas for when I start again they would be more than welcome. The reason I am removing the head is the gasket needs replacing as there is evidence of a leak out the side of the engine. Tried the starter and the four prizing points!

[T Creighton]

Hi Paul.
Scroll down to my thread on removing the head studs.
Phil has posted some good advice for lifting the head there.
When I bought my truck 3 plugs were rusted right off but I had no problems
getting the head off.
The studs are a different story.
All the best.
Terry

Oops, just noticed Phil's posting not there any more so go to his website.

[Lynn Eades]

When you get the head off, light a fire on top of the piston. It will heat it and the rings and the expansion will free them from the (being frozen to)bore.
A small bit of rag and diesel is all you need. It will burn slowly with a yellow sooty flame.Let it burn for quite a while. Probably you will put the diesel in the hole, light he rag, then drop it in.
When the fire it out, add some oil before trying to turn it over.

[Bob Carriere]

The piston rings are probably rust welded to the cylinder walls....... amazingly strong when you consider the surface area of the ring against the cylinder wall.

I have had better luck with some mechanical force than with diesel, ATF, rust blaster, Gibbs, etc.....

Cut yourself a good sturdy piece of wood that will almost cover the whole face of the piston...... leave the diesel fuel 1/8 of an inch..... you have the bottom end open...... locate number four and hopefully it is probably half way up or down...... alternatively tap the piston from the top and tap the crank ( using a block of wood ) from below...... be patient.... it will eventually break free....... you may need to polish the cylinder wall with 600 grit emery paper soaked in fuel...... rings may need to be replaced....... has worked for me every time on old Allis Chalmers tractors that were left in the rain. Having someone to tap from the top as you tap from underneath is a God send..... don't ask your helper to do the tapping from below...... the oil drips will spoil the friendship. I have done this with the engine still in the tractor frame.....and my old WC and C are still running.

cheers

[pauldavies]

Thanks every one and I will be giving all these answers a go next week when I get back on the C8

[pauldavies]

Just an interesting conundrum for every one, on removing my cylinder head today I found there were two copper gaskets fitted, any ideas? I did use the timber wedge technique thanks to Philip@cmp.com.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Likely trying to seal a warped head or block.

[Greg Beeston]

It may not be why your C8 has two head gaskets but I've heard the PMG used to fit two head gaskets to lower the compression / performance of there cars

[pauldavies]

Interesting David and will check out the head and block tomorrow.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Paul

Glad you got the head off. Are the piston tops flat or domed? If they are domed check to see how much clearance there is piston to head. Did these engines have or change from flat to domed piston?

Reason I say this is that when had to replace the head one my HUP the new head was ment for flat top pistons but the engine had domed piston I replaced the pistons.

Having said all that my bet is on Greg's theory done to allow the engine to burn lower octane fuel.

Cheers Phil

[Richard Farrant]

The Morris is a side valve, they are low enough compression as it is unless a farmer had been using it with Vaporising oil or as you might call it Kero or Paraffin, but my bet is one of two possibilities, the head is warped, not unusual, or that the head has already been skimmed (too much) and now the valves are kissing the head so fitted 2 head gaskets! Only way to know if the head has been skimmed too far is to get another Morris owner with a C8 or C4 to measure the height of their head.
Pretty sure there were no domed pistons on these side valves, only ever seen flat tops.

regards, Richard

[pauldavies]

Thanks for your input every one, I have checked the head & block and all is flat and good. The pistons have flat heads and the cylinder head has plenty of clearance, the sparking is over the valves so no problem there either. Maybe the theory of using other fuel maybe the reason, pretty sure the guy who did the restoration didn't take the head off as the compression was good but I will ask him. Have only one port to clean up, bit of corrosion due to water getting past a loose plug on no 4.

[pauldavies]

Sorry Richard I never answered your valve clearance idea, I will measure the open valve height and the recess in the head tomorrow plus the width of gasket.

[pauldavies]

I have checked all the clearances and can find no logical reason why the use of two gaskets apart from another type of fuel, I will contact the restoration guy this weekend.
Thanks every one and feel free to try to give me an answer .
Paul

[pauldavies]

The mystery of the two gaskets, having finished cleaning up the head and no4 bore I am in the process of re-assembly, when the head was tightened down I looked to put the two bolts in the water pump at the front/top of the head. They don't line up due to the holes in the cylinder head where the thread is are lower than the clearance holes in the water pump and that's why they put two gaskets on to raise the head up. Silly me. I have taken the water pump off and will elongate the holes in the pump. Yes it is quite likely the head has been machined to cause this, no knocking when engine is turned over so ok..

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by pauldavies

The mystery of the two gaskets, having finished cleaning up the head and no4 bore I am in the process of re-assembly, when the head was tightened down I looked to put the two bolts in the water pump at the front/top of the head. They don't line up due to the holes in the cylinder head where the thread is are lower than the clearance holes in the water pump and that's why they put two gaskets on to raise the head up. Silly me. I have taken the water pump off and will elongate the holes in the pump. Yes it is quite likely the head has been machined to cause this, no knocking when engine is turned over so ok..

Hi Paul,
Well done on solving the mystery, they must have taken a lot off that head unless it had been skimmed several times in its life.

regards, Richard

[Mike Kelly]

Would a compression test tell you how much the head has been shaved ?

I have a Indian made copy of the 1930 Lister CS single cyl. diesel , they recommend using a little piece of lead to check the piston to head clearance. The piston squashes the lead , you then measure the thickness of the lead . Don't know if that helps ?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

Would a compression test tell you how much the head has been shaved ?

I have a Indian made copy of the 1930 Lister CS single cyl. diesel , they recommend using a little piece of lead to check the piston to head clearance. The piston squashes the lead , you then measure the thickness of the lead . Don't know if that helps ?

Hi Mike
I remember working on Lister engines from many years ago and think this procedure with the piece of lead was to get the shimming correct under the cylinder barrel, due to slight variations on piston height, barrel, etc.

To ascertain compression ratio on the Morris you would fill the combustion chamber with a measured amount of liquid and work the formula out with cylinder capacity. This done with head off and upside down.

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

Hi Mike
I remember working on Lister engines from many years ago and think this procedure with the piece of lead was to get the shimming correct under the cylinder barrel, due to slight variations on piston height, barrel, etc.

.

Yes , they recommend 1/16" is the correct piston/head gap. The shims under the cylinder , I sort of guessed that . The Indian built Listers are nowhere as good as the originals. It is necessary to strip the Indian engine down, and check for casting sand in the crankcase , plus many other atrocious faults. Mine had terrible camshaft bearing clearances . The timing gears are prone to breaking , mine has a bronze timing gear . I had to machine a eccentric bolt to adjust the timing gear backlash which was terrible. I had a lot of trouble starting it, the compression is huge , after spinning it over, I flick the valve lifter off and the piston just bounces back , it wont go over TDC ! The good thing is, fantastic spares backup !

[pauldavies]

I have measured the recess for the pistons and there is more than 1/16,"the pistons are .010" below the top of the case and there is .130" at the lowest on the head as it domes up over the pistons(which are flat) this is before I add the gasket which I didn't measure as it will be flattened by tightening down the head. Will do a pressure test once I get it all back together.

[pauldavies]

I had the head off again today, doubts in mind mean going backwards. I was going to elongate the water pump holes but the wall thickness doesn't allow so I filled the original holes in the cylinder head and drilled & tapped new ones where they will fit, all good and removed a broken bolt that was causing some problems. The head was measured again for clearance and as I previously measured the pistons have .100" clearance as the pistons are .020" under the case and the gasket is a squashed .080" so all good. Should get good pressure which I will check in a few days, I added a picture of the head just to remind myself what lurks below. Thanks every one.
Paul

[Mike Kelly]

I hope it all works out OK . I have the six cyl. engines, they do have their quirks e.g. the oil feed to the engine crankshaft bearings via a external pipe. Where Did you find a new head gasket ?

[pauldavies]

Thanks Mike, I bought a load of parts from the original restorer (not the guy I bought the truck off) John Scowen. They included the copper head gasket, leather head gasket? also some exhaust gaskets, new pistons, rings, sleeves plus a collection of electrical bits and pieces. I am searching for a distributor top at the moment as I broke it when taking the head off, it wouldn't budge prior to removing the head but it's out now but broken.
Old bakerlite is as fragile as glass.
Paul

[T Creighton]

Hi Paul,
Do you by any chance have any pistons, rings and liners left over to sell. I would definitely be interested. My engine is 4 cyl. type EH.
Regards, Terry

[Mike Kelly]

I think the 4 cyl. engine parts are still available from the UK . The Land Rover engine restorers, can't think of their name ( COX and Turner ? ) , they have a huge stock of old engine parts . I bought new valves for the Morris OH engine from them . Might be a ideal chance while the UK pound is low.

The chap from Norway bought a container load of NOS Morris parts, ex Norwegian army stock . What became of him and the parts ?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I think the 4 cyl. engine parts are still available from the UK . The Land Rover engine restorers, can't think of their name ( COX and Turner ? ) , they have a huge stock of old engine parts . I bought new valves for the Morris OH engine from them . Might be a ideal chance while the UK pound is low.

The chap from Norway bought a container load of NOS Morris parts, ex Norwegian army stock . What became of him and the parts ?

Hi Mike,
Cox and Turner are excellent for vintage engine spares.

I think the Morris parts in Norway are now with someone in England.

[pauldavies]

Terry after I get this engine going I will let you know what I have left if thats ok.
Paul

[T Creighton]

That's appreciated Paul.
Cheers

[pauldavies]

Is this space between the engine block and the flywheel housing supposed to have a cover to stop the muck etc going into the components inside? I have looked in the manual and nothing is there, this does not seem right. Can anyone help

[Mike Kelly]

It is British and worse, a Morris ? Got to expect this type of thing

Which manual do you have ?