Does anyone have any info regarding the "Sherman Firefly Deep Wading Gear"???

[Alex van de Wetering]

Does anyone have any info regarding the "Sherman Firefly Deep Wading Gear"???

I am busy constucting a scale model of a Sherman Firefly and I want to attach deep wading gear to it to represent a D-day firefly. Problem is the front-most wading box (the air-inlet for the engine). I have got pictures of the wading gear of the M4A4/Sherman III, but the front-most wading box on the firefly probably looked a little different because of the radio-box at the rear of the turret, which is in the way.
Does someone know what the front-most tube/box of the Firefly wadinggear looked like? probably a slight "detour" (?). Or maybe the engine breathed threw the tank-interior and turret-hatches????
Does anyone have any pictures of Fireflies with wading gear?


Yours Truly, Alex van de Wetering (the Netherlands)

From everything I've read the fireflies were held back on d-day. I haven't read anything about DD firelfies. Could be wrong though.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I believe you're right, although I can't prove it right now... something I recall is that the 17-pounder's barrel was too long for the standard DD conversion.

Geoff, as far as I know the DD tanks were always returned at the first possible moment and were only used for wet landings. It would seem silly to tie up a firefly as a DD, when at that time they had only 1 17pdr per troop.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Guys;

A note regarding DD's - 6 CAR (1st Hussars) - "A" & "B" Sqns - heavy losses on 6 June - "A" & "B" Sqns combined into one afterwards - doesn't look like they turned in what was left of their DD strength until 10 June.

A note regarding Fireflys - "C" Sqn, 6 CAR had two ashore by approx. 1630hrs 6 June - "C" Sqn started landing at approx. 0830hrs but it doesn't mention anything about Fireflys except for the 1630hrs quote.

I've never heard of or read anything regarding DD Fireflys.

Anyways, thats my 2¢ worth.

Cheers

[Michael Dorosh]

I was going to post earlier but thought better of it, now it seems it might not be so crazy. If you are landing tanks in support of infantry, charged with engaging concrete emplacements,wouldn't you want your 75mm Shermans ashore with their more-effective HE rounds?

Or were the tanks using AP against the emplacements on the beach?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Guys, there seems to be some confusion here: Alex is looking for information about deep wading gear, not the amphibious Duplex Drive conversion. Deep wading gear were stacks to permit the tank to wade up to the turret, the DD conversion enabled the tank to actually swim.

Alex, sorry I can help with your question, but you might want to try the Sherman Register mailing list

- Hanno

[Mark W. Tonner]

Alex;

Picture 1: Sherman Firefly 13th/18th Hussars prior to loading for D-Day

[Mark W. Tonner]

Alex;

Picture 2: same Sherman Firefly 13th/18th Hussars.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Alex;

Picture 3: a detailed look at the deep wading gear fitted to a Sherman. The foremost duct on the right, feeds air to the engine while the larger rear one dispels exhaust gases. These structures are held in place by cables and bolts but are released by explosive charges once the tank is clear of the water.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Alex;

Picture 4: diagram of the general arrangement of the Deep Wading Gear.

Hope these four pictures help.

Cheers

[Alex van de Wetering]

Thanks guys for the reactions so far,

Like Hanno already pointed out, I want to build a Firefly with wading tubes,trunks,boxes (whatever you call them!) and not a Sherman DD!
A DD is also on my "wanted" list for a scale model, but there is enough DuplexDrive info around, including some survivors, to build an accurate scalemodel.
At the moment, I am purely looking for info on the Fireflies who were used during D-Day and the following days. The pictures that Mark Tonner posted are indeed very helpfull, although not the whole wading gear can be seen. So I am still looking for more on the Firefly wading gear.

Alex van de Wetering

p.s. The pictures that Mark posted show "Carole", the firefly I want to construct

[Mark W. Tonner]

Alex;

I have more, I'll go through again and post.

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Guys, here's what I can tell about deep wading kits without having my references at hand.
The British deep wading trunks differed from the US-built ones. These had the scoops on top, whereas the British ones were just plain rectangular open ended ducts. Also, as the different types of Shermans had different engine cooling arrangements, the deep wading kits varied from type to type.
Mark's picture 1 and 2 show the British kit for an M4A4 (Sherman V) with multibank engine. The M4A4 has a liquid-cooled engine which draws in cooling air in through the turret hatch, so only one duct is needed at the rear for the expelled cooling air and exhaust gasses.
Picture 3 shows the US kit for a radial-engined Stuart (M3A1?), whereas picture 4 shows the setup for a radial-engined Sherman (M4 or M4A1). Radial-engined tanks had a separate air intake on the rear hull deck to allow large quantities of air to be drawn into the engine compartment. Like Mark pointed out, the front duct is fitted over this air intake.

All for now,
regards,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's a picture of a US M4 or M4A1 Sherman wading up to the turret ring.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hanno;

Ref: Picture 3 - Stuart - Like I said, sometimes I miss a detail here and there, didn't notice until I read your post...it is a Stuart
Oh well, new glasses on order....................

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering "p.s. The pictures that Mark posted show "Carole", the firefly I want to construct"

Alex;

The two pictures I posted of a Firefly (1 & 2), are of a Firefly of "C" Sqn, 13th/18th Royal Hussars, which you say carried the name 'Carole'. By 1944, after the Regiment was equipped with Shermans, they started using the common system of naming their tanks after the Squadron letter, except on their light tanks. Also, they carried large identification numbers, ussaully on the turrets and for "C" Sqn, the numbers used were 66-80 inclusive.

RHQ and "C" Sqn were the "Wading" components of the Regiment on D-Day, landing at H Hour + 45. On 6 June 1944, the Regiment had on strength only 4x 17pdr Firefly, all of which were in "C" Sqn (1 per Troop/each Troop: 3x 75mm, 1x 17pdr).

In regards to "Wading Gear", all photo references I've seen indicate that the 13th/18th Hussars only used the larger rear duct (dispels exhaust gases), the plain rectangular open ended type, on their "Wading" element Shermans. In no pictures, is there any sign of them using the other (air intake) duct.

Have found one picture of the bottom coupling for the rear duct on a Firefly, after the top portion was removed after landing, its not very clear, but hopefully it helps.

If you want, send me your e-mail address and I'll send you a series of photos I have of the "Wading" elements (RHQ & "C" Sqn) of the 13th/18th Royal Hussars on 6 June.

Sorry Guys, if I were to post the photos here, it would be a series of individual posts.

Alex, the picture of the Firefly rear duct:

p.s. - Hanno - I have pictures of the 3rd County of London Yeomanry using the "scooped topped" rear ducts on their Shermans, and again, they only used the rear duct - interested?

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Alex;

Here is the first of two pictures of the rear duct portion of the "Wading Gear" on a Sherman V of RHQ 13th/18th Hussars:

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Alex;

Here is the second of two pictures of the rear duct portion of the "Wading Gear" on a Sherman V of RHQ 13th/18th Hussars, this one is an artist's impression of the first picture:

Cheers

[tankbarrell]

Hanno et al. Actually the air intake for the M4A4, Sherman V is a grill behind the turret. It does draw some air from the fighting compartment, indeed the air cleaners are inside the hull so all the engine intake air comes through the hatches.
British deep wading gear for Sherman came in two forms, 3ft and 6ft. Only the 6ft required the inlet stack and I suspect it was not possible to equip a Firefly for 6ft wading.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by tankbarrell
Hanno et al. Actually the air intake for the M4A4, Sherman V is a grill behind the turret. It does draw some air from the fighting compartment, indeed the air cleaners are inside the hull so all the engine intake air comes through the hatches.

Adrian, you are right of course. Normally I would check before replying but there's no need to doubt the words from a man who has a Sherman V sitting in his shop

[tankbarrell]

Thanks for your kind comments Hanno. I think the rear view of a Sherman V is actually a Sherman III.

[Mark W. Tonner]

tankbarrell;

The source was the history of the 13th/18th Royal Hussars.

Cheers

[tankbarrell]

Mark,

Compare with the Firefly rear view. The hull overhang is greater and the trunk is more tapered.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Alex;

Your may find this book to be useful:

SHERMAN FIREFLY
by Mark Hayard
ISBN 0-9638777-2-8
£35.00 (Pound Sterling).

Available from

Barbarossa Books
Zhukov House
14 Maldon Road
Tiptree, Essex CO5 0LL
United Kingdom

barbbook@dircon.co.uk

Cheers


[moderator removed attached image to preserve bandwidth - provided link to author's site instead: http://freespace.virgin.net/shermanic.firefly/]

[Mark W. Tonner]

Alex;

Found this during my "wanderings" today, thought it might help.
Sherman Vc Firefly with the bottom portion of the deep wading duct still attached, it's a clearer picture than the one I posted earlier, hope this helps.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Alex;

Came across this while I was looking for something else, which is always the case and I thought you might like to see it. It's a picture of 'Carole' taken on 13 June 1944 at Breville. Notice how the long storage box has been moved to it's normal mounting position on the rear from it's front mounting prior to loading for 6 June. Anyways, thought you might be interested.

Cheers

[Alex van de Wetering]

Thanks everyone!

For all your replies, usefull information and good pictures!!!.
I didn't expect so much reactions and such a good discussion!!!
In the meantime I have started the work on firefly "Carole"-scale model. I will fit the rearmost wading trunk/tube/box like fitted on "normal Sherman V's and just cover the air inlet-grille behind the turret and leave the turret-hatches open, because this was the most likely configuration and some of this can be seen on pictures.
(I haven't decided or found out if the air inlet grille was covered with sheet metal or with canvas).

For those interested I am planning to build more of the vehicles that were aboard LCT 212 (like Firefly " Carole" ). I allready started work on a Sherman ARV I and am planning to build a Sherman III ("Charmer?") and a Sherman V.

In the meantime (I always work on too much projects at once!) I am still busy on my CMP Ford F60H wrecker! I include a picture.

regards, Alex van de Wetering

[Edited by moderator: image removed to save space; link to post "Ford F60H wrecker scalemodel in progress..." with same image inserted.]

[Alex van de Wetering]

Hi Guys,

I just wanted to move this thread on top again, hoping someone has found new pictures or movie stills that confirms the assumptions we made about 4 years ago.

Recently I studied the pictures of firefly "Carole" again, they seem to only show two cables, the ones from the rear wading stack, which end behind the turret on the engine deck. This seems to suggest that the release mechanism is also positioned on the deck, in stead of the turret roof. That is also what made it possible to turn the turret while onboard the LCT (which can be seen in pictures). A picture of “Carole” from the back on board LCT 212 also shows that the bracket on the turret roof, normally used for attaching the cable release mechanism, is un-used.

I think the inlet grill was covered with a sheet metal cover and the release machanism would have been fitted on top of this. Another option would be that the “standard” lower section of the M4A4 inlet gear was fitted, but covered with canvas and cordtex. In that case you would be left with the release mechanism. If you study the position where the cable reaches the engine deck on the picture, you will also see that this has to be on top of the inlet grille and not behind it. That’s why I recon it would have been a combination of both canvas and sheet metal; sheet metal for a solid base and canvas and cordtex to remove the stuff after landing.

I have scrolled through a lot of pictures and movies last weekend, but still haven't found a clear shot of what the wading equipment on the inlet grille looked like. Can anyone help out here? Maybe a picture which shows infantry riding on the back of a Frefly, which shows remains of the wading equipment????

Alex

[Les Freathy]

A couple of ARVs with trunking, the second MK2 has 4 stacks not the 2 sloping types seen on most armoured vehicles. The first photo in the ARV thread also shows the trunking
cheers
Les