M38A1 in Aust. army

Mike Kelly · #1 08-10-11, 03:14

Must be an evaluation vehicle ?

http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemD...x?itemID=98112

Mike Cecil · #2 08-10-11, 03:45

Yes: only two procured by Army for the 1/4 ton truck trials of the late 1950s.

It didn't win: the Aust Army purchased 1/4 ton Land Rovers, and the rest is, as they say, history.

Mike C

Richard Coutts-Smith · #3 08-10-11, 04:02

Mike's,
according to this:
http://www.remlr.com/Army-Trials.html
M38A1 was trialed in '58/'59, along with the Landy, Gipsy,CJ-3B (RAF got these), and the Freighter.
This page also has some terrific photo's of the trial vehicles, particulary in the '60's.

Some more info on the trial in question:
http://www.film.queensu.ca/cj3b/Mili...tArmyTest.html
(Although they got the Champ date wrong)

Thanks for pointing me in this direction. Found it very interesting.
Rich.

Mike Cecil · #4 08-10-11, 04:16

Richard,

No probs: you'll even see some of my article text about the trials reproduced from the DMO website there as well.

The Army kept the M38A1, using them for various specials, such as the air-drop test shown in the image Mike K posted the link to. I think I have an image somewhere of it actually being extracted from the C130 hercules. They also test-dropped an L5 105mm Pack Howitzer at the same time.

The RAAF acquired a number of jeeps in the late 50s and early 60s in various configurations: CJ3B, CJ5.

Mike C

Richard Coutts-Smith · #5 08-10-11, 04:29

The reference to the Freighter has got the old grey matter working, the proto-type was on E-bay years ago.
Yup, here it is:
http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ight=Freighter
Interesting story in itself.
Wonder who has it now.

Rich.

Mike Kelly · #6 08-10-11, 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

The RAAF acquired a number of jeeps in the late 50s and early 60s in various configurations: CJ3B, CJ5.

here you go Mike

http://www.film.queensu.ca/cj3b/Worl...raliaRAAF.html

AUSM38A1 · #7 13-10-11, 04:57

Hi Guys heres some more photos of Ozzies using jeeps after WW2...In one of the photos is what looks like a cj5 flanked by 2 cj3bs ...also when they dropped the M38A1 out of the plane they also dropped this....It must of been a political decision to choose the Landrover over the M38A1?....also to search all of the photo data base i use this

http://trove.nla.gov.au/

So many great photos to be seen on there..cheers mick

Ryan · #8 13-10-11, 10:40

I read some time ago about Willys Australia production numbers in Australia post war and it included 10 M38A1s made. Is this correct? If so, if the army only recieved two where did the other 8 go?
An ex-Army M38A1 was listed several years ago on ebay near me but didn't sell at the time. The owners were asking about $6-7.000 at the time. It is now in the hands of a jeep enthuiast and still near me being restored.

Dianaa · #9 13-10-11, 10:56

A mate was in the Australian Training Team mentoring the Montenards, one day they went to the local US Px and when they came out there was a US Military Police M38A1 parked outside, so they jumped into it and drove back to their lines. Apparently, by the end of the day it had red rats and ARN plates. They used it for the rest of their tour.

AUSM38A1 · #10 13-10-11, 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

I read some time ago about Willys Australia production numbers in Australia post war and it included 10 M38A1s made. Is this correct? If so, if the army only recieved two where did the other 8 go?
An ex-Army M38A1 was listed several years ago on ebay near me but didn't sell at the time. The owners were asking about $6-7.000 at the time. It is now in the hands of a jeep enthuiast and still near me being restored.

Hi Ryan i have read the same list i think there is a copy on the CJ3B page and it was also in jeep action im not sure how acurate it is it was compiled by a worker at the willys assembly plant.I have seen photos of one other that was in australia but it now resides in NZ i think, but from the photos it looked to have a cj5 tub onit...Other than the air dropped jeep at Williamstown airbase and the other evaluation jeep the others could of been M606s the military version of a cj5 which is what the US sent out for export purposes an kept the A1 for them selves (Canadians,Nekaf) ..cheers Mick

AUSM38A1 · #11 14-10-11, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dianaa

A mate was in the Australian Training Team mentoring the Montenards, one day they went to the local US Px and when they came out there was a US Military Police M38A1 parked outside, so they jumped into it and drove back to their lines. Apparently, by the end of the day it had red rats and ARN plates. They used it for the rest of their tour.

Hi Dianaa, Yeah there is a few photos of ozzies driving M38A1s in Vietnam with the red rat stuck on them..cheers mick

Mike Cecil · #12 14-10-11, 00:31

All,

The RAAF operated (ie registered as RAAF property) various numbers of the following Willys models:

CJ3B
CJ5
CJ6
FC170
Gladiator J2600

.... and at least ten vehicles stated as being 'M38A1'.

The Army obtained two M38A1 for trials: described at the time as 'the current model 1/4 ton truck in US service.' The projected price per unit was A1500 pounds (which would include 12 months maintenance spares, I assume)

Mike C

Mike Cecil · #13 14-10-11, 00:40

.... so on further consideration, I'd suggest that the '10' M38A1's said to be manufactured/assembled locally were all for the RAAF, and the two for the Army were direct imports under the ABCA inter-service agreement, and don't count in the local assembly total. Just a thought....

Mike C

AUSM38A1 · #14 14-10-11, 01:21

Mike thanks for the great info..Here are a few photos of mine ...something abit different with the M38A1 was the tool stowage inside the jeep the reason they say was when they where on the outside they would get snagged and tools would be lost....the shovel is under the hood strange place for a shovel

and the axe is on the rear wheel arch...cheers mick

Mike Cecil · #15 14-10-11, 01:26

Nice M38A1 Mick: what's its chassis number? If its ex-Aust service, I may have a listing for it.

Mike C

AUSM38A1 · #16 14-10-11, 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Nice M38A1 Mick: what's its chassis number? If its ex-Aust service, I may have a listing for it.

Mike C

Thanks so much for that Mike...Well mines a real puzzle from all accounts it seems its One of abt 750 built by Ford of Canada on the DS front frame rail is stamped in quiet big numbers 53-32631 which is a Canadian CFR number it also has the convoy light switch rebuilt tags by the RCEME riveted to the top of each diff dated 1971 it has all the makings of the early model (8 thumb screws on battery box,45 degree seam in front guards,hinged front grille)...not sure how it came to be in oz i have herd that a bunch got bought over for a film that was shot at woomera in the mid 1980s called Ground zero but ive never seen the film...they are a great jeep to drive so solid and the reversed front spring hangers make them ride a treat....also here is a copy of the willys Aust list courtesy of the CJ3B page...cheers

Model Units Built
CJ-3B & CJ-3BL (long) 1000
CJ-5 & CJ-6 4 Cyl 1560
6-226 2WD Station Wagon 6
6-226 4x4 Cab/Chassis & SW 1133
475 2WD Station Wagon 236
6-230 2WD Station Wagon 18
6-230 4 x 4 Station Wagon 36
6-230 Cab/Chassis 366
FJ3 Fleetvan 1
FC-150 Truck 1
FC-170 Truck 126
CJ-5 & CJ-6 Falcon 6 Cyl 604
J-Series Truck (photo at left) 527
M38A1 12

Ron King · #17 23-10-11, 05:28

I very strongly suspect the so called M38A1s tested by the Aust army were not.
The Aust testing pics lack features of a true M38A1, like the lifting loops on the front bumper and the correct body features.
True M38A1 jeeps were 24volt electrics with waterproof/suppressed igniton system.
Bell housing and dist could be pressurised by the exhaust system.
True M38A1 had a full on M series dash board.
The shovel was fitted up under the bonnet.
The battery compartment was water proof and there was a big round cut out just behind the RHS front guard.
The Aust CJ5s tested by the Aust army were most likely fitted locally with miltiary fittings, but no where near the M38A1 standard.

Local CJ5/6s produced in Aust did have some features of military vehicles in the body work like the export open up windscreen and the battery compartment lid was welded fixed to the body work and a single battery fitted in the engine bay, a snorkel cut out was some times provided in the bonnet like the M38A1.
Standard colour supplied was army green
The M38A1 had different wheels in aust models.
Aust produced CJ5/6s tended to have locally produced lucas generator, dist and starter.
The gearbox was slightly different and the diffs/axles tended to be local Borg Warner items.
The Brakes were slightly different, depending on exact year model and production .
Aust tested jeeps were very most likely much different from the M38A1( the M38A1 being a better vehicle all round )
I have owned a Aussie CJ3B and still own a Aussie CJ6 which I have had for more than 27 years.

Ron King · #18 23-10-11, 05:33

Ron King · #19 23-10-11, 05:39

It is worth noteing the driving position of aussie produced CJ series jeeps from the factory was very poor, as it was very low and not adjustable, which made seeing over the bonnet hard at times.
Note the extra tall cushions on mine to componsate and the seat has been moved back slightly.

Hanno Spoelstra · #20 23-10-11, 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron King

I very strongly suspect the so called M38A1s tested by the Aust army were not.

Ron,

You could well be right. Willys / Kaiser also sold their Jeep to Armies without the interference of the US military, for example the Netherlands (when they were fighting a colonial war with Indonesia), Israel and Switzerland. Pics below show the Swiss Army militarized CJ-5, which is nothing more than a CJ-5 painted olive drab and fited with a military type folding top, black-out lighting and some other minor modifications like a shovel fitted under the body. The Swiss even had a 24-volt radio version.

These militarised CJ-5s are not to be confused with the M606A2 / A3, another militarised version of the CJ-5 manufactured for the US government for MDAP supply to friendly countries.

Regards,
Hanno

AUSM38A1 · #21 25-10-11, 09:07

The jeep in the photo from willamstown airbase sure looks like an M38A1 mainly because of the recessed headlights in the front grille it also has the lift rings but yes they could be fitted to a cj ..its hard to tell but the front springs seem to be fixed at the front (no front shackles)and its a shame there isnt a shot from the other side which would show the recessed recepticle if it is an M38A1 ...used for jump starting the jeep and for the jeep to jump start other vehciles...cause it is a pain to undo all the thumb screws to get to the batteries ..cheers mick

Col Tigwell · #22 26-10-11, 01:02

The Australian army purchased an kit from the US army to train staff in airdrop procedures on the C130. When the kit tuned it include a M38 jeep which if I recall correctly was in US army colours and had a USA registration.

The jeep was air dropped on countless times until on the last drop a malfunction took place and the jeep was destroyed.

I am asking loadmaster friends if they have any photos of it which is highly likely.

We also had a M38 at Vung Tau which the Yanks did not back but we were not allowed to bring home. It too was in US army colours etc and never was on charge with the RAAF.

Will revert if more comes to light

regards

Col

Col Tigwell · #23 01-11-11, 02:02

I suspect that the jeep rigged ready for airdrop in the photo was 107422 if it was the ex us army one then it could have a ARN to allow it to be driven off the base.

Looking at the photo this jeep appears to be set up for droping from a caribou as the platform would not suit the C130 airdrop system.

Still waiting for info and photos back from the troops.

Regards

Col

Mike Cecil · #24 17-11-11, 18:19

Hi Gents,

Been offline for a month or so.

Ron: the trials reports state that the vehicle was an 'M38A1', with 24 volt system which 'functioned satisfactorily throughout the trial'. It was also fitted with lifting sling fittings, described as 'towing loops', front and rear. The phase 2 trials report concludes with the statement 'The M38A1 at the time of original manufacture was probably in advance of anything else then made. By todays (ie Dec 1959) standards it begins to fall short in comfort, handling, and durability'. The trials had problems with spring settlement and breakages, among other defects.

The vehicle pictured in the airdrop image posted earlier is ARN 107422. The other one purchased was ARN 107421, and was the main subject of the phase 2 trials mentioned above. It was described as 'Willys M38A1 Serial Number 357144:15719, engine no. 114632.'

There are also several references to the equipment and fittings on the vehicle being of US Army standard, for example, under 'stowage', it states: 'Provision for shovel only - location under bonnet. Not satisfactory for Aust shovel, suitable for apopropriate US pattern shovel'. Under 'horn' it states 'presumably approved in US Army'.

It would seem that, as far as the Australian testers were concerned, they were dealing with a 'standard' 1958 manufacture M38A1.

Mike C

AUSM38A1 · #25 07-12-11, 21:31

Thanks for clearing that up Mike..thats some great information there..Gee they where hard in there assesment of it not sure what else at the time would of held up better after being dropped from a plane???...the lift rings are very rugged and so are the springs ...something else i notice with the M38A1 is its alot stronger frame than the cj5 and it has tie down points in several locations along the frame rails..will post some pics ... thanks again for the info thats hard to get stuff...

Mick