Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Mrs Vampire]

more pics

I expect the files to be online within a month or so so. Those curious enough can read them and come to their own conclusions.

[Mike Kelly]

Back in the 1940's colour matching was done by eye , the matching was a subjective skill because all of us have different colour perception .

I am wondering how different the so called "specified" colours were to each manufacturer ? Mike

[Mrs Vampire]

Hi Mike the archive indicates the colour was done by formula.

There were six basic colours form which the rest could be made . The basic colours were made using pigment by weight. There are some photos in previous parts of this thread of the process and a copy of the formulas for the colours.
There is also considerable material in the archive about pigment and sourcing it.

It was not as hit and miss as you might think. The can of KG3 I have a loan of is a standard issue 1944 can from the manufacturer. The colour is about exact as I could imagine with the sample in the Archive and with Bob Mosely's version.

The paints were not mixed up at the local hardware store . Local purchase meant purchasing from the nearest manufacturer. Those manufactures were still required to abide by the specification and the pigments were not like the liquid squirts they use today rather they were sometimes a paste and often a powder .

[Mike Kelly]

This may be of interest .

The manual for the 109 radio set , made by STC in Sydney , dated 1941, has the paint colour code . If the set needs to be repainted or touched up, they write

Examine the steel framework and if the enamel surface has been damaged it should be repaired as necessary by applying one coat of Bergers Defence Khaki enamel No. CP3477 or equivalent .Allow four hours for the enamel to dry

[Matt Austin]

Evening, folks,

Reckon this is Khaki Green J? The yellow faded paint appears to be common, and the refreshed green is just a result of a rag and water.

Cheers,
Matt

[Keith Webb]

That will make for a cheap restoration Matt, couple of rags and a few bottles of water!

Originally Posted by Matt Austin

Evening, folks,

Reckon this is Khaki Green J? The yellow faded paint appears to be common, and the refreshed green is just a result of a rag and water.

Cheers,
Matt

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Matt Austin

Evening, folks,

Reckon this is Khaki Green J? The yellow faded paint appears to be common, and the refreshed green is just a result of a rag and water.

Cheers,
Matt

Matt

I'd be tempted to leave that truck in its natural patina . You would be the only guy at Corowa with a vehicle still painted in genuine army paint ! Mike

[Matt Austin]

Thanks, gents. Mike, you have a very good point. Sadly, things go south from the back of the cab! But, it certainly makes me think, and if I could save it, it'd be worth doing. Keith, perhaps the molecular remnants in the Pepsi bottle helped!

Cheers,
Matt

[Matt Austin]

It seems that Khaki Green J fades to that familiar yellow, but does KG3 do the same?

[Mrs Vampire]

In my experience yes.
I have a late production rear from a Gun Tractor No 9 . The inside paint is an exact match for KG3 the outside faded to an indistinguishably yellowish colour I have seen on exposed vehicles that must have been painted from 1941-1945

I guess the chromate pigments , which were the same for all greens during WWII, are the hardiest.

[Mrs Vampire]

an example of the problems faced.

Three NOS items a hinge a fan Shroud (Ford) an internal panel Chev production

The hinge is KG3 and from late chev production. The Internal panel is KGJ second toning down version and the fan shroud early ford production and appears to be Foliage Green K according to the canberra sample plates.

[Keith Webb]

It's also interesting to compare some of the new old stock parts which were painted in Canada. I'll have to gather some together, a mix of greens, sand and even brown.
By the way I found my two pint tins of khaki paint over the weekend.

[Mike Cecil]

Well spend several days mixing them up from the sludge in the bottom of the cans and slap a couple of strokes onto some flat steel panels, Keith, we are all waiting in anticipation (esp Gina W)!!!!

Good find amongst your 'stuff'..... but what else did you turn up in the 'treasure shed of Unobtainium'?

Back on deck from a very successful trip to WY and MT. Now to knock out something interesting for Richard F & KVE....

Mike

[Keith Webb]

It's OK - Gina collected a tin I gave Euan some time ago and has that with her now. She's probably burnt out several drills with paint stirrers on them by now.

[Mrs Vampire]

Keith are they identical cans to the one Ewen lent me??

I have the paint in the hands of my specialist. On Mixing machine then by hand.
We will make about a dozen plates and pass them on .

We will put some preservative goodies in the paint to extend its life hopefully we will not have to re tin it . The lid is a bit dodgy but it looks like it will open ok .

I have also aquired a couple of tins of KG3 gas detecting paint circa 1943.

Mike sent samples of the 1960s and 1980s KG . They have been spectro'd and are now available from Florite.

Slowly coming together.

[Keith Webb]

Yes, same batch.

They came from Hughes trading back in the 1970s.

Good to hear the paint is being put to good use.

I mixed some back then and painted my BSA pushbike which I still have.

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

Keith are they identical cans to the one Ewen lent me??

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

I have also aquired a couple of tins of KG3 gas detecting paint circa 1943.

Is the paint in little "WILLOW" branded cans ? I bought some of those from Aussie disposals for 50 cents each , dated 1943. A peculiar colour , a kind of browny beige , or mud colour . I think the idea was you painted a small square on the outside somewhere . I wonder what they actually put in that paint , it might be a deadly concoction

[Mrs Vampire]

Colour sounds the same Mike but mine are DD and 1944

Below the can a colour patch under artificial light and in direct sunlight the colour chip on a KG3 Colour card all on a late KGj NOS Chev part.

I understand it was used as you describe. My tins also have sand in the paint to give a grainy non slip effect.

[Mrs Vampire]

I am now quite close to concluding my research project.

I have made a series of plates from the can of paint loaned to me by Ewan . The paint compares very closely to KGJ 1942 as held in the National archive Melbourne . I now consider that a closed case.
I have , very kindly , been loaned a copy of the Australian Standard for camouflage paint 1942 (revised feb 1943) and the KGJ from the original tin compares nicely with that as well
I have also located a sample of the toned down KGJ ( march to december 1943)
and have a near exact batch made up.

From the loaned copy of the standard we have spectrographed all the colours and I will have a litre of each made up. I am contemplating making twenty five sets of sample plates of each colour and along with the spectrograph and a short history of the paint compiling a book .

Depending on interest I can make the book available to those interested at cost recovery prices.
As to the paint itself . I venture that it of Melbourne manufacture as it is short chained and high in Phenols . It is highly water and chemical resistant but not long wearing reflecting the complaints concerning paint manufactured in Melbourne during the war.

So far as KG3 is concerned it is certain it is a pre 1940 specification. I am awaiting information from Mike Starmers to establish if it is in fact the British colour.
KG3 was according to the records not used on vehicles until after December 1943. The use of eggshell matt (3% gloss) followed closely on the general use of this colour. Previous to this all paint was dead flat. ( less than 1%gloss) Interestingly the specification for tin hats was KG3 and not the same colours used on vehicles.

If I can get a loan of the Spartan chart I will do the same for the aircraft colours.

Below KGJ as compared to the melbourne colour chart.

[Mike Kelly]

I would like a copy of the book. Sounds like a useful thing to have . Mike

[Mike Cecil]

Gina,

Interesting conclusions, and a significant (and sustained!) piece of research.

I have a query, however, as from my reading, two of your posts appear to be in conflict. In Sept you said:

"The file referred to earlier BC 440598 contains in it Mechanized Circular 301 ( 2 Jan 1942). That circular refers to vehicles allocated to the AIF being painted Light Stone BSC61. That is vehicles used overseas ( North Africa etc)

It also refers to the use of KG3 being the base colour for vehicles stationed in Australia . My view that the pre 1942 colour was Deep Bronze Green 24 appears from this evidence to be incorrect. KG3 appears to be the initial colour."

and now you say "KG3 was according to the records not used on vehicles until after December 1943."

As these two statements appear to conflict, could you clarify, please?

Also, not all vehicles allocated to the AIF were used overseas - not by a significant margin - so there were lots of vehicles with AIF plates still in Australia and supplied from assembly painted light stone.

Yes, I'd like a copy of your publication too, please.

Mike

[cliff]

put my name down for a copy of your book as well please Gina.

[Mike Kelly]

colour movie of trucks

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F04991/

[Dianaa]

A lot more carriages than the couple of trucks. Mostly scenery of SA and NT.

[Andrew Foulkes]

Gina

I have been following your thread with great interest having hunted in the UK archives for more information about vehicle colours for the BEF in France in 1939-40. Certainly Khaki Green No 3 was the 1939 British vehicle paint, used for newly manufactured vehicles after about mid year, and used to over-paint the 'Service colour' Deep Bronze Green, BS No 24 on existing vehicles. It will be very interesting to see how Mike Starmer's KG3 colour mix compares with yours.

I look forward to seeing the additional Australian files which you said are being digitized and I would like to buy a copy of the book if you go ahead.

Andrew

[chris.bruton]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

...We see a change in December 1944, however, when RAAF Instruction 2/20 states the finish of RAAF vehicles will be 'Khaki Green Matt Synthetic Resin Based Enamel K4/10394'.

Hi Mike,
I am currently restoring a 1942 Willys MB with my dad and he has some old paint tins marked:

Enamel Matt
Khaki Green
M.E. 2010
MIX 307. 6/49
S.A.A. INT. 23.A.
K4/10394

We opened one up and mixed it through and the consistency surprisingly still looks ok.

Where is it possible to get a copy of the RAAF instruction you mentioned "2/20"?

Sorry I'm still new to this and deciphering the forum info, but wondering if this would be a suitable paint for the jeep restoration or what it would suit?

How rare is this paint? Would there be any benefit for the group in sharing samples? Happy to contribute.

Regards,

Chris

[Mrs Vampire]

Mike.

My posts are a bit of a stream, of consciousness thing.

If you read through them there are loads of inconsistencies and misapprehensions. I started the thread with complete ignorance. I hope the steady progress shows a gradual illumination on the subject as I became more knowledgeable .
I think it would spoil the content if I were to go back and correct all my mistakes and misunderstandings I have had along the way.


When I do the write up I hope all that will be eliminated.

[Mrs Vampire]

Hi Chris I would greatly appreciate a sample of the paint from your tin.

It looks remarkable similar to the can Ewan lent me which was KGJ

I would be interested in identifying the colour.

[Mike Cecil]

OK, that puts it all in perspective, thanks Gina.

Take the last as the current state of play: will do.

Mike

[Jacques Reed]

Good Day,

A fellow MLU member recently pointed out to me the following information at the AWM archives.

The WW2 Camouflage colour chips held there have a Munsell number attached to them. In the case of Khaki Green J it is listed as Munsell No. 7.5Y 4/2.

Reading up on the Munsell system it defines the Hue, Value and Chroma of the colour. Won't go into long dissertation here but leave it to the reader to learn more.

Having read the write-up attached with the picture of the colour chips it is not completely clear whether the Munsell number was assigned to it at the time of manufacture of the chips or whether it was a later assessment by an archivist at the AWM.

It appears the web page may have been updated, as an earlier sighting of the page did not include the Munsell numbers.

If it was a contemporary description of it at WW2 then colour matching has just become a lot more simple.

Can anyone shed some light on it?

Have attached link below.


https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/REL/16500/

Cheers,