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  #1  
Old 27-06-20, 21:10
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Default War Department 16” divided rim: British and Canadian manufacture

The British War Department split rim came in various sizes. The one we look at here is the 6.00x16 version as fitted to Commonwealth 15- and 30-cwt trucks.

The rim width is 6" and the wheel diameter is 16", hence the 6.00x16 designation. It was also referred to as "flat base rim". This type of wheel was fitted with tyres sizes 9.00-16, 9.25-16 or 10.50-16, either in R.F. (Run Flat) or Pneumatic version.

There were some variations between British and Canadian manufacture as explained in this thread. Please add more info if you can.
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  #2  
Old 27-06-20, 21:21
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Default British made rim

British made rims have the valve stem opening to the right of the bolt. All eight bolts are the same length.

The example is marked "RF" and "6.00x16". It was made by Sankey and is dated "7/41".

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  #3  
Old 27-06-20, 21:28
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Default Canadian made rim

Canadian made rims have the valve stem opening to the left of the bolt. Two of the eight bolts are longer than the other six.

This example has no maker or date stamp, only "6.00 / 16".

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  #4  
Old 27-06-20, 21:53
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Default Wheel diameter

As per the thread new 9.00-16 tyres for WD split rim wheels, Mike Kelly measured up some tyres and found out that the wheel diameter of the British/Canadian 16" tyres and rims are ¼" larger than those of US 16" tires and rims. That is why standard 9.00-16 tyres which are not marked "for British rim" can be hard to fit to this type of rim.

I measured the circumference at the bead at 129 cm which converts to a wheel diameter of 16,2 inch. The circumference of the British and Canadian made rims is the same.

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  #5  
Old 27-06-20, 22:31
Owen Evans Owen Evans is offline
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My Canadian rims have the attached instruction plate welded to them. Not present on my British rims (but they could have corroded away, of course).

Owen.
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C15 rim instruction plate.jpg   C15 rim.jpg  
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  #6  
Old 27-06-20, 22:34
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Default Instruction plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen Evans View Post
My Canadian rims have the attached instruction plate welded to them. Not present on my British rims (but they could have corroded away, of course).
Thanks for the addition, Owen. I have a British rim for sale which still has the instruction plate attached.

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  #7  
Old 28-06-20, 00:10
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Default 16" WD rims Ford and Chev difference

Hi Hanno,

Another difference I have noticed between Ford Kelsey and GM Canada rims is the GM rims have an embossed pattern around the outer rim just noticeable in the photo. Ford rims are smooth at that position.

Cheers,
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  #8  
Old 28-06-20, 04:55
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Some similar info in THIS THREAD from 2006.

For reference, it should be stated that the thread on the studs is 7/8" BSF (7/8"-11tpi). All threads for the divided rim studs are right hand thread.

On Canadian CMPs, wheels fitted to either left or right side of the vehicle have Left or Right hand thread 5/8" UNF (5/8"-18tpi) Lug Nut and Studs for each side of the vehicle.

British vehicles that use these style of wheels (and also towed equipment like 25Pdr Guns and No27 Limbers, even those made in Canada) have BSF thread Lug Nuts and Studs in LH and RH 1n 5/8"BSF (5/8"-14tpi).

These wheels freely interchange between Cdn or UK vehicles (and towed equipment), but the lug nuts and studs are particular to the vehicle.
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  #9  
Old 28-06-20, 05:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
This example has .....

Attachment 114791
..... Angle grinder cuts where the wheel nuts were cut off!

Not meaning to divert this thread, those cuts can be repaired to present a better finished rim before final painting.

While naturally a bead of weld will fill the grooves, the weld itself will require further grinding to clean it up flush and present a smooth lug nut seat. Some people might also have qualms about heat damage from the weld affecting the temper of the rim, and therefore it's structural soundness.

I have had great success with a metal filling epoxy called JB Weld. It can be shaped, sanded, or ground easily and binds securely to metal, so won't fall off in a slab years later. Readily painted with any automotive primer and paint system (ie Enamel or Acrylic). It doesn't just work on repairing grind marks, it also does a fantastic job on sandblasted rims that have hollows from rust pitting or gouges from kerb strikes. You'll have that rim looking like new again.
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  #10  
Old 28-06-20, 08:04
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Default Article

Found this , haven't read it yet.

http://www.usarmymodels.com/ARTICLES/Tires/tires.html
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  #11  
Old 28-06-20, 11:51
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Default British rim instruction plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen Evans View Post
My Canadian rims have the attached instruction plate welded to them. Not present on my British rims (but they could have corroded away, of course).
Here's another variation of the instruction plate, have not seen this before.

This is a British rim, as it has the valve stem opening to the right of the bolt.

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  #12  
Old 28-06-20, 12:01
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Default

Thanks for the tip, will use it when I need to restore the rim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Smith View Post
..... Angle grinder cuts where the wheel nuts were cut off!

Not meaning to divert this thread, those cuts can be repaired to present a better finished rim before final painting.

While naturally a bead of weld will fill the grooves, the weld itself will require further grinding to clean it up flush and present a smooth lug nut seat. Some people might also have qualms about heat damage from the weld affecting the temper of the rim, and therefore it's structural soundness.

I have had great success with a metal filling epoxy called JB Weld. It can be shaped, sanded, or ground easily and binds securely to metal, so won't fall off in a slab years later. Readily painted with any automotive primer and paint system (ie Enamel or Acrylic). It doesn't just work on repairing grind marks, it also does a fantastic job on sandblasted rims that have hollows from rust pitting or gouges from kerb strikes. You'll have that rim looking like new again.
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  #13  
Old 28-06-20, 12:16
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Default US divided rim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Kelly View Post
Lynn posted this link also, upon actually reading Kurt Laughlin's article I found an interesting drawing.

The US 16" rim was 15.965" in diameter and had 5 deg. bead angle.

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  #14  
Old 28-06-20, 13:05
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Default thread on the studs

Very worthwile addition, Tony, thanks. I did want to focus on 16" rims, hence I did not continue in your thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Smith View Post
Some similar info in THIS THREAD from 2006.

For reference, it should be stated that the thread on the studs is 7/8" BSF (7/8"-11tpi). All threads for the divided rim studs are right hand thread.

On Canadian CMPs, wheels fitted to either left or right side of the vehicle have Left or Right hand thread 5/8" UNF (5/8"-18tpi) Lug Nut and Studs for each side of the vehicle.

British vehicles that use these style of wheels (and also towed equipment like 25Pdr Guns and No27 Limbers, even those made in Canada) have BSF thread Lug Nuts and Studs in LH and RH 1n 5/8"BSF (5/8"-14tpi).

These wheels freely interchange between Cdn or UK vehicles (and towed equipment), but the lug nuts and studs are particular to the vehicle.
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  #15  
Old 28-06-20, 13:41
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Default Embossed pattern

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Reed View Post
Another difference I have noticed between Ford Kelsey and GM Canada rims is the GM rims have an embossed pattern around the outer rim just noticeable in the photo. Ford rims are smooth at that position.
Thanks Jacques, I have never noticed that before (or did not recall Tony mentioning this back in 2006...). Nice detail!
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  #16  
Old 28-06-20, 16:49
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Default Terminology?

Are these 'split-rims' or 'two-piece rims' or 'divided rims'? I know we all refer to CMP wheels as split rims, but strictly speaking, is that correct? I thought that split-rims referred to the rim with an outer locking ring which had a gap, and CMPs had two-piece rims? I noticed the diagram a couple of posts back used the term 'divided rim' - had not seen that before.

What's the correct terminology?

Also, Tony's comment about the 25-pdr and Trailer No.27 Mk.1 having left and right hand thread studs/wheel nuts. That is so for early production but by 1943, only right hand thread studs and nuts were used throughout, and retrofit kits issued for guns and trailers already in service. (Stud, Wheel, Cone seating, No.3 and Nut, Cone Seating, wheel stud, No.4). Just how many were retrofitted is an unknown, of course.

Mike
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  #17  
Old 28-06-20, 17:20
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Default Split Wheel Type

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Cecil View Post
Are these 'split-rims' or 'two-piece rims' or 'divided rims'? I know we all refer to CMP wheels as split rims, but strictly speaking, is that correct? I thought that split-rims referred to the rim with an outer locking ring which had a gap, and CMPs had two-piece rims? I noticed the diagram a couple of posts back used the term 'divided rim' - had not seen that before.

What's the correct terminology?
The "divided rim" shown above come from the article on US wheels & tires.

The 1942 Ford MB-F1 Maintenance Manual lists "Wheel Type: Split"
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  #18  
Old 28-06-20, 19:27
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Just to clarify the designation of these rims, known generally as a WD Divided Rim, here are some scans from LV6/MT14 Vocab showing specification details.
Note, FB/R means Flat Base Rim
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600-16 rim spec.jpg   Rims.jpg  
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  #19  
Old 28-06-20, 20:22
Phil Waterman Phil Waterman is offline
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Default Divided Rim vs. Split Rim Design

Hi Mike and Hanno

You have raised a very interesting distinction that it would do us all well to remember. Particularly when we are looking for a tire shop to mount or dismount or mount our CMP tires. We should all be using the term Divided Rim with explanation they are two halves that bolt together in the middle.

In searching these two terms on line found a letter from OSHA (US Health and Safety) saying they were different. That Divided Rims were OK to work on with normal safety precautions.

Just something to stick in the back of our minds.

Cheers Phil
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Old 28-06-20, 20:43
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Default Divided Rim

Excellent Richard, so Divided Rim it is!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Farrant View Post
Just to clarify the designation of these rims, known generally as a WD Divided Rim, here are some scans from LV6/MT14 Vocab showing specification details.
Note, FB/R means Flat Base Rim
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  #21  
Old 28-06-20, 21:16
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Default Terminology-2

Interesting distinctions. The War Office 1966 driver training manual distinguishes the two types as 'divided type wheel' and 'three piece wide base rim' in the diagrams, then has an each way bet in the text: 'such wheels split into two or three parts to allow for replacement of tyre or tube'.

Looking more closely at the CMP manuals and parts lists, the Ford MBF1 uses the term split rim with the drawing of the wheel, but not in the text, and in both the Chev and Ford parts lists, the wheels are described as 'split' for the various sizes.

But neither the Chev MBC1 or C2 maintenance manuals use the term. All these manuals (MBF1 and MBC1&2) describe the wheel rims in the text as two piece.

Clear as mud, eh?

Mike
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  #22  
Old 28-06-20, 21:38
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For those that don't recognise it, the diagram in Hanno's post#13 is of a WC Dodge rim (3/4 and 1 1/2 ton)
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Old 28-06-20, 22:34
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It seems strange that in Richard's post LV6/MT14 description that the PCD of the wheel stud holes is given in mm (and doesn't represent a sensible inch size) when everything those wheels fit were designed in inches.

David
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Old 29-06-20, 00:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert View Post
It seems strange that in Richard's post LV6/MT14 description that the PCD of the wheel stud holes is given in mm (and doesn't represent a sensible inch size) when everything those wheels fit were designed in inches.
Hi David,
I agree that is strange as the Vocab is dated 1951. Looking at the book again it appears that only the 8 and 10 stud wheels have PCD in mm. Maybe this was a standard stud pattern used pre-war by overseas manufacturers?
Something else to investigate! I know some foreign vehicles went through WD trials in the 1930's, maybe this is something picked up from their evaluations.

regards, Richard
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Old 29-06-20, 00:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Farrant View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert View Post
It seems strange that in Richard's post LV6/MT14 description that the PCD of the wheel stud holes is given in mm (and doesn't represent a sensible inch size) when everything those wheels fit were designed in inches.
I agree that is strange as the Vocab is dated 1951. Looking at the book again it appears that only the 8 and 10 stud wheels have PCD in mm. Maybe this was a standard stud pattern used pre-war by overseas manufacturers?
Something else to investigate! I know some foreign vehicles went through WD trials in the 1930's, maybe this is something picked up from their evaluations.
Note that the 275mm PCD is incorrect.

For anyone considering replacement rims, the Wheel Stud PCD is 8 on 10 1/2", or 266.7mm.
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Old 29-06-20, 00:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Smith View Post
Note that the 275mm PCD is incorrect.

For anyone considering replacement rims, the Wheel Stud PCD is 8 on 10 1/2", or 266.7mm.
Tony,
I can only quote what the War Office parts catalogue says and I looked at all the divided rims for 8 stud fixing on both 16 and 20 inch wheels and it states 275mm on all of them. It is not so much the diameter that is of interest, it is why it was measured in metric at that period of time.
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  #27  
Old 29-06-20, 02:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Farrant View Post
It is not so much the diameter that is of interest, it is why it was measured in metric at that period of time.
Well, the actual PCD is important if you are having rims made (as has been done by some on this forum), but I do note that Heavy Bedford trucks of the 50's and 60's are also noted as having "8 on 275mm" wheels (actual 10 1/2"), and this is known as the "Bedford (DIN)" bolt pattern.

But the actual figure is still of interest, as it might have been more accurately rounded to either 265mm or 270mm.
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Old 29-06-20, 03:06
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Richard

Possibly it was a fit of enthusiasm in the early days when everybody was aligning to NATO Standard and metrication was embraced resulting in some weird numbers while trying to align existing Imperial with Metric?

Lang
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Old 29-06-20, 08:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Smith View Post
..... Angle grinder cuts where the wheel nuts were cut off!

I have had great success with a metal filling epoxy called JB Weld. It can be shaped, sanded, or ground easily and binds securely to metal, so won't fall off in a slab years later. Readily painted with any automotive primer and paint system (ie Enamel or Acrylic). It doesn't just work on repairing grind marks, it also does a fantastic job on sandblasted rims that have hollows from rust pitting or gouges from kerb strikes. You'll have that rim looking like new again.
I purchased J B Weld yesterday. A$18.20 from Autobarn Bairnsdale. The only place in town who had some.

Cheers Rick.
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  #30  
Old 29-06-20, 12:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Smith View Post
Well, the actual PCD is important if you are having rims made (as has been done by some on this forum), but I do note that Heavy Bedford trucks of the 50's and 60's are also noted as having "8 on 275mm" wheels (actual 10 1/2"), and this is known as the "Bedford (DIN)" bolt pattern.

But the actual figure is still of interest, as it might have been more accurately rounded to either 265mm or 270mm.
Tony,
I have no idea why you are comparing Bedford from 50’s and 60’s as none of their military trucks in that period used the WD divided rims. The RL and MK had different rims to each other and were 3-piece type, so this just muddy’s the water.
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