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Old 03-04-21, 04:08
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Default Leads , aerial No 5 Canadian

Hello . I am trying to hook up my no 19 set to a mast , aerial 20 / 34 feet . What is the construction and lenght of a No 5 Lead , aerial so i can reproduce it please . Attached is a diagram from the Louis Meultse Wireless for the warrior book 2 . Thanks .
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Old 03-04-21, 04:33
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Hello . I am trying to hook up my no 19 set to a mast , aerial 20 / 34 feet . What is the construction and lenght of a No 5 Lead , aerial so i can reproduce it please . Attached is a diagram from the Louis Meultse Wireless for the warrior book . Thanks .
My guess is that it's Connector, Single, No.7C (as given in EMER Tels FZ256/3) and is 6-ft long. It's only used when the set is dismounted from the vehicle for use as a ground station.

I'll have a look when I wake up.

Best regards,
Chris.
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Old 03-04-21, 15:19
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Thanks Chris . Q to all radio experts : What i am really asking is how do i setup a remote antenna away from the 15 Cwt wireless truck (applicable to the Wire-3 & 5 trucks ). I want to use my 20 & 34 feet masts on the ground (with insulators of course ), not on top of the truck . I need a lead from the No 19 set to the masts . What caliber cable and lengths restrictions do i have to avoid signal loss ? I have seen and worked modern radio installations where the antenna masts were miles away to avoid adversary artillery (mortar ) ranging on your actual position . All i want is to position my antenna mast maybe 25- 50 feet away from the truck . What are the principals involved with radio signal loss ? The goal is to set up the masts so they become more tangible for onlookers at meets and good conversation starters while remaining operational . Thanks .
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Old 03-04-21, 16:50
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Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron View Post
Thanks Chris . Q to all radio experts : What i am really asking is how do i setup a remote antenna away from the 15 Cwt wireless truck (applicable to the Wire-3 & 5 trucks ). I want to use my 20 & 34 feet masts on the ground (with insulators of course ), not on top of the truck . I need a lead from the No 19 set to the masts . What caliber cable and lengths restrictions do i have to avoid signal loss ? I have seen and worked modern radio installations where the antenna masts were miles away to avoid adversary artillery (mortar ) ranging on your actual position . All i want is to position my antenna mast maybe 25- 50 feet away from the truck . What are the principals involved with radio signal loss ? The goal is to set up the masts so they become more tangible for onlookers at meets and good conversation starters while remaining operational . Thanks .
The simple answer is that you don't. The WS19 was designed as a vehicle radio, intended to (mostly) use a whip aerial over short to medium distances (a few miles). Longer distances (rear link) would use the high power version or the WS52 with a long vertical aerial for groundwave, or a horizontal aerial for skywave (long distance) propagation.

WW2 direction finding was not that precise and very definitely not portable, so it didn't really pose a problem unless the enemy were close enough to actually see your aerials. If it was a problem, then the set could be removed from the vehicle and "dug in" with a trench and overhead protection using batteries only (and having charged batteries supplied on a daily basis to avoid running a generator that would give your position away).

Remote aerials were used with larger sets (12, 33 & 53) which couldn't easily be removed from vehicles - being intended for headquarters and (later) command vehicles.

The Aerial Coupling Unit 'J' allowed this to be done for vehicle sets (WS22 and WS19), but it required a coaxial cable between the local and remote coupling units, had to be tuned at the remote end, and was limited to a few hundred feet. (For further separation of radio and commanders, you dug the set and operator in and used the Wireless Remote Control Unit No.1 (or British equivalent 'E') and as much telephone wire as necessary - but it needed a local operator at the set.)

Remote aerials mostly appeared post-WW2, with the switch to VHF (and advances in direction finding that made it essential to keep radios away from the actual headquarters for the protection of HQ, hence the development of the "radio village" connected to HQ by line.) The use of VHF also required remote aerials due to being line of sight and the need to avoid the signal being blocked by trees or hills.

WW2-era sets ending in '9' (9, 19, 29), plus the WS52 (which was a Canadian redesign of the British W.S.9) were intended for AFV installation, and the possible use of remote aerials was never considered by the designers.

Best regards,
Chris.
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Old 03-04-21, 17:45
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Thank you very much Chris for the detailed response. Does that mean that I am limited to the 6 feet of the No 5 lead ? If so, going back to my original question , what is the caliber of that wire please so that i can at least use a reproduction in an unmounted setup outside the truck ?
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Old 03-04-21, 19:57
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Thank you very much Chris for the detailed response. Does that mean that I am limited to the 6 feet of the No 5 lead ? If so, going back to my original question , what is the caliber of that wire please so that i can at least use a reproduction in an unmounted setup outside the truck ?
The problem with a long feeder lying on the ground is that it's going to reduce the signal power getting to the aerial mast (and also add capacitance that the variometer may have difficulty balancing out).

I was going to suggest the usual P11 cable that is used for aerial feeders in the UK by the army (and its equivalent on the Canadian WS19 and WS52 aerials - Wire, Electric, Single, No.12), which is rubber insulated, but the EMER lists "Wire, Electric, Single, High Tension, 7mm" for that connector (possibly because it will be in contact with the ground).

It's probably the copper-cored single stranded conductor type used for ignition wiring; just make sure you don't get the later "carbon string" sort!

The other possibility (if you have the space) is to use both masts and one of the wire aerials - then you don't need to worry about making another cable.



Best regards,
Chris.
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Old 04-04-21, 01:32
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Further thoughts:

All the kit required for the Truck & Ground Station is listed in FZ 256/3, and would be issued as the "Set & Standard Kit" plus the dedicated "Installation Kit" for the intended use.

The "Set & Standard Kit" contains all the common parts for an AFV install, some of which (such as the Carrier No.1, waterproof covers, etc.) would not be required and had to be returned to stores.

The "Installation Kit" contained all the items needed to complete the particular installation, including all the cable clips and fasteners, installation and disposal drawings, etc.

So for the Truck & Ground Station, the aerial rods (F & G) and bases (8 (or 10) and 9) would be in the Set & Standard Kit, and the Installation Kit would supply the wire aerials (70, 90, 110, 150, 185 and 250-foot), Aerial Base No.9A (the 'B' set base for demounted use - basically a No.9 on a big spring clamp), two of the long co-ax feeders (Leads Aerial No.3/Connector Coaxial 11A), one for permanent installation in the truck and the other for use with the clamp-on base, and all the other bits & pieces, cables, extra headgear, satchels, etc.

FZ 256/3 is a really useful EMER, and you should get your hands on a copy.

As far as the cables required go (and they're all listed, along with the components needed to make them up from stores if required) are concerned:

Connectors, 4-point, No.32 - Switchboard, Charging, C5 or 2 batteries to set (demounted use)
Connectors, 12-point, No. 1E - WS19 to Control Unit 3B
Connectors, Co-axial, No.11A (Qty 2) WS19 B set to Base No.9 and 9A (demounted use)
Connectors, Single, No.7C - Aerial socket on WS19 carrier to mast
Connectors, Single, No.23 12V+ from Vehicle Switchboard to Switchboard, Charging, C5
Connectors, Single, No.23A 12V- from Vehicle Switchboard to Switchboard, Charging, C5
Connectors, Single, No.24 - Battery 1 12V+ to Switchboard, Charging, C5
Connectors, Single, No.24A - Battery 1 12V- to Switchboard, Charging, C5
Connectors, Single, No.24B - Battery 2 12V+ to Switchboard, Charging, C5
Connectors, Single, No.24C - Battery 2 12V- to Switchboard, Charging, C5
Connectors, Single, No.33 - Earth clip on Carrier 23 to vehicle Earth
Connectors, Twin, No.53 - Switchboard, Charging, C5 to Batten, Terminal (set), I think.
Connectors, Twin, No.77 - Batten, Terminal to WS19 Supply Unit No.2

There are also other connectors involved - the 'A' set aerial uses Aerial Feeder No.9 to connect the variometer to Base No.8 (or 10), and Connector, Single, No.33 for earth in the vehicle, and there's a Leads, Earth, No.2 for use with an earth pin and/or counterpoise when demounted, and either 'F' rods (or the plug on the wire aerial) into the fixed socket on the variometer mounting plate or Connector, Single, 7C from that to the 34-ft mast insulator terminal.

I think most of this is correct. (I'm not sure if the fused switchboard in your vehicle replaces the charging switchboard altogether for use in the vehicle.)

The battery link cables are not listed (Connector, Single, No.3) and are presumably supplied with the batteries. Likewise the cable from Chore Horse to Switchboard, Charging, C5 is part of the Chore Horse installation kit.

Best regards,
Chris.
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Old 04-04-21, 01:51
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Yes Chris , the fused switchboard replaces completely the C-5 Cdn switchboard . So i made what you call a 7C lead out of No 8 rubber insulation copper wire with a couple of copper connectors . Instead of plugging in the aerial socket , i screw the connectors directly to the variometer screw and nut . I will take pictures soon . Did a reception test and it works just fine .Thanks for the help . Any pictures Chris of all this nice equipment ? Cheers .
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Old 04-04-21, 02:36
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Illustration picked up on an old thread from 2010 source unknown.
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Old 04-04-21, 03:10
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Here is a picture of a little known feature about the Wire-5 truck . To the right , the ground wire .The grounding post to the frame is just inside the box right beside it . To the left another possible connection for something ( an antenna mast lead either 5c or 7c depending on Can/ UK ? ) . I connected a 100 feet single insulated wire strung up on trees on this post and inside the box a lead to the variometer nut and screw post and reception was great . No idea what would happen in the transmission mode . We never concluded definitely what these posts were designed for in the first place . Many ideas came out but none were definitive and the manuals don’t mention it’s existence. Field phone wire connection, 12 V power , 110 V power . Nobody has ever mentioned antenna lead connection . I just don’t know . Over .
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Old 04-04-21, 03:13
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Better overall view.
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Old 04-04-21, 12:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron View Post
Yes Chris , the fused switchboard replaces completely the C-5 Cdn switchboard . So i made what you call a 7C lead out of No 8 rubber insulation copper wire with a couple of copper connectors . Instead of plugging in the aerial socket , i screw the connectors directly to the variometer screw and nut . I will take pictures soon . Did a reception test and it works just fine .Thanks for the help . Any pictures Chris of all this nice equipment ? Cheers .
For my sins, I stayed up late last night, reading the WS19 Canadian Installation Instructions for the Truck & Ground Station, in conjunction with FZ 256/3. This turned up errors in both of them.

I already knew about the Connector 7C illustration being swapped with that of the 194, but there is also the Aerial Feeder No.9 which is shown as being connected to the variometer terminal (instead of being plugged into the aerial rod socket - this explains why the one I have is fitted with a plug like on the 7C (otherwise demounting the set would require fiddling around with the variometer connections and these would eventually break)).

The illustrations in the Installation Instructions show several different vehicle fits (which could be helpful as well as confusing) and there are various errors
in all of them.

I need to have a further think about all this.

Chris.
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Old 04-04-21, 12:21
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Illustration picked up on an old thread from 2010 source unknown.
Aha! That's the same illustration as Louis used in Wireless for the Warrior and comes from the Truck & Ground station installation book. (It's on Page 8 and the lead is wrongly identified as "Leads, Aerial, No.5" in the book. The 2010 illustration is obviously a corrected version but still has the same drawing reference number 7-298-3-A.)

Thinking about this, it's probably a direct result of the Great Renumbering that went on, where they changed the names of lots of cables/connectors to avoid confusion (especially for those parts used with many different bits of equipment).

For example:

ZA.3141 Wireless Set No.19, Leads, Aerial, No.1 became Connector, Coaxial No.10
ZA.3142 Wireless Set No.19, Leads, Aerial, No.2 became Connector, Coaxial No.11
ZA.3143 Wireless Set No.19, Leads, Aerial, No.3 became Connector, Coaxial No.11A

and I suspect that our little friend

Wireless Set No.19, Leads, Aerial, No.5 became ZA.10318 Connectors, Single No.7C

so as not to confuse the stores people or Wireless Fitters.

The installation instructions are dated September 1943 and the EMER is dated October 1944.

Chris.
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Old 05-04-21, 02:47
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Default Leads aerial No 3

Thanks again Chris . Just to add to the discussion here are some pictures i found in a Canadian wartime manual : 1- Cover of said manual , 2-description of lead No 3 referenced as No 37 on the picture , No 3- picture of a substantial coil of lead cable for the antenna masts . The mystery deepens. Is that coil i estimate as being 25 or maybe 30 feet in length coaxial or single wire ? I dont know much but i don’t see why it would be coaxial the way it is coiled . In my mind it’s meant to feed a mast . I don’t see why the user had to setup his mast just 6 feet from the No 19 with a No 5 lead when dug in a deep trench with overhead cover and revetting . So if my assumption is right , you could use a mast aerial remotely meaning more than 6 feet away.
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Old 05-04-21, 02:49
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Here is the title of the illustration and list of equipment in said illustration / picture .Check no 37
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Old 05-04-21, 03:00
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Here is number 35 : Lead No 5 estimated as being 6 feet in length previously. Anybody who has had the chance of working / living in a defensive position knows that you don’t want a mast / aerial on top of your position . 20-30 feet away from the trench / command post / bunker is better whatever the tactical situation. The farther the better because the opposition used binos . Now the question remains : Coaxial or single wire ? There is nowhere to plug a Pye connector on the variometer to feed the antenna so single wire . As the list says : No 3 lead , single . Coaxial was only used to feed B set aerials , in this setup anyway except for the one feeding the A set variometer . Comments , remarks ?
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Old 05-04-21, 03:32
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Here is a 6c lead wire posted for sale by Frank v R in 2015. Much shorter version than the No 3 referenced in my discussion but single wire again. The caliber or size of the wire sure looks impressive .
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Old 05-04-21, 12:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron View Post
Thanks again Chris . Just to add to the discussion here are some pictures i found in a Canadian wartime manual : 1- Cover of said manual , 2-description of lead No 3 referenced as No 37 on the picture , No 3- picture of a substantial coil of lead cable for the antenna masts . The mystery deepens. Is that coil i estimate as being 25 or maybe 30 feet in length coaxial or single wire ? I dont know much but i donít see why it would be coaxial the way it is coiled . In my mind itís meant to feed a mast . I donít see why the user had to setup his mast just 6 feet from the No 19 with a No 5 lead when dug in a deep trench with overhead cover and revetting . So if my assumption is right , you could use a mast aerial remotely meaning more than 6 feet away.
Hi Robert, I have that manual.

Lead, Aerial No.3 was renamed Connector, Co-axial No.11A and is the long one for the 'B' set to Aerial Base No.9 or 9A. You get two of them in the Truck & Ground station kit - one is permanently fitted in the truck to connect the set to the aerial base on the roof, the other is stowed for use when the set is removed from the vehicle for use on the ground. (That's item 35 on the layout of the kit.)

Item 37 is the Lead, Aerial, No.5 (later renamed Connector, Single No.7C) and is 6 feet of 7mm diameter insulated wire.

I will have a rummage in my mast kit later and see if I can find the No.5 (or 7C) cable, but it is fairly short (to avoid transmission losses).

Best regards,
Chris.
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Old 05-04-21, 12:35
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Here is a 6c lead wire posted for sale by Frank v R in 2015. Much shorter version than the No 3 referenced in my discussion but single wire again. The caliber or size of the wire sure looks impressive .
That's another part of the kit, again for use with the 34-ft mast, when the mast is used on the vehicle roof.

The metal plug is the same diameter as the bottom 'F' rod, and plugs into the aerial base (No.8 or No.10), and the slotted lug connects to the screw terminal on the mast insulator.

The wire is about 7mm o.d. (as used to make the 7C lead) and looks like the Cable, Electric, P11 used for most of the British aerial leads (still in use today).

Best regards,
Chris.
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Old 05-04-21, 13:05
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Quote:
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Here is number 35 : Lead No 5 estimated as being 6 feet in length previously. Anybody who has had the chance of working / living in a defensive position knows that you donít want a mast / aerial on top of your position . 20-30 feet away from the trench / command post / bunker is better whatever the tactical situation. The farther the better because the opposition used binos . Now the question remains : Coaxial or single wire ? There is nowhere to plug a Pye connector on the variometer to feed the antenna so single wire . As the list says : No 3 lead , single . Coaxial was only used to feed B set aerials , in this setup anyway except for the one feeding the A set variometer . Comments , remarks ?
For remote aerials there was a special kit (I saw the box for it on eBay last year but all the lid fittings had been removed). This was used with the WS22 and (British) WS19HP, and is fairly scarce. The kit contained a "Set Unit 'J'" with a couple of short leads to connect to the set aerial output and earth, and a Pye co-axial connector plus a movable link to select different capacitor values for better matching. The other (mast) end of the kit was "Aerial Unit 'J'" consisting of a variable inductor and a plug-in thermocouple meter plus other components. (The meter was selected from a range with different current ratings to match the set output power - they're quite fragile and burn out very quickly if overloaded.) Completing the kit were several lengths of coaxial cable with Pye connectors each end, and barrel connectors to link them together. I'm not sure of the number or length of the cables in the kit and have never seen a manual for it, but I'd guess they would allow 20 - 25 yards between set and mast.

There are photographs of some of this kit on Keith Watt's page:

https://www.royalsignals.org.uk/photos/ws22/index.htm

I'm gradually accumulating parts of that kit (unfortunately most of them have been heavily modified by radio amateurs or stripped of the silver wire by scrap dealers), and will eventually get myself a set that I can try out.

(The WS19HP (British) has co-axial output so does not require the 'Set Unit 'J'")

Best regards,
Chris.
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Old 13-04-21, 22:32
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I had further thoughts, and went through the Wireless Set No.52 manual for the Truck & Ground Station, as lots of parts are common to the WS19 Canadian....

Kit No.1 contains "Leads, Aerial No. C7" which connects the WS52 sender and receiver (and is the one David Dunlop had to manufacture for his WS52).

Kit No.2 contains two of "Aerial Lead ASSY C1", which connect the Aerial Tuning Coil No.2A to the Aerial Base C2 in the vehicle, and also Leads, Aerial No. C6 which connects the sender to the Aerial Tuning Coil 2A (that lead (C6) is included with the coil.

Kit No.3 which is mostly accessories for the mast kit contains ZA/C 10318 Leads, Aerial No.5 and a second Leads, Aerial No. C6 - this time to plug in to the socket on Aerial Base C2 and link it to the terminal on the mast when that is used on the vehicle roof.

The section dealing with the setting up of the ground station advises picking the site for the mast first, then erecting the wireless tent, making sure the table is close enough for the Leads, Aerial No.5 to reach from the set to the terminal on the mast. That lead is 6 feet long, so the tent will be tucked up close to the mast and within the circle of guy ropes.

The WS52 manual is an entertaining read, as long as you don't have to carry out some of the steps: the table must be capable of supporting 270 pounds. "Lift the Set onto the table. If it seems that something more than gravity is working on the Set, have courage; it weighs 255 pounds."

Anyway, it looks like the Aerial Leads were common to multiple sets and eventually got redesignated as "Connector, Single, No.?" to make life easier for the ordnance stores and reduce duplication of stock.

Chris.
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