2 pounder AT fired on wheels

[centurion]

Searching for something completely different I cam across a photo of a 2 pounder in the field being fired from its wheels. I'd always believed that this gun had to be used with the wheels off and the four legs folded out. Either a leg was being used as a trail or there was actually a wheeled conventional carriage for this weapon. Does any one know of a 2 pounder equipment like this?

[Gunner]

Hi Centurion:

The 2 pounder was produced in the UK on a 360 degree revolving carriage (the one most of us are used to seeing). In Canada, some were produced using the same carriage as the 6 pounder.

Post the photo and we'll see if we can ID it for you.

Cheers! Mike

[Doug Knight]

All versions of the 2-pounder could be fired off the wheels, although the preferred mode was to put it on the three trails by rotating the axle upwards (Mark I carriage) or removing the wheels completely (Mark II and III carriage). When fired from the wheels, the traverse was limited - ie not all round traverse. the mark IV carriage was the 6-pounder split trail carriage.

[John McGillivray]

According to the 2 pdr manual (Mk II to IIIA Carriage) the gun is fired on the wheels during an “Emergency Action”. Below is a drawing (modified from another source) of the 2 pdr as it would be set up. There would be a handspike inserted into the handspike socket so that one of the gun numbers could move the gun left or right to track targets.

A question regarding the HE ammunition. There is a HE round for the 2 pdr gun. When did it come into use? It is my understanding that the Anti-tank guns of the Royal Artillery had the HE round from the beginning, but that it was not issued to tank crews because the high priests of armoured warfare saw no need for it. Is this correct?

Doug, I saw that you are preparing a book on the 3.7in HAA gun. Have you seen the Regimental History of 2 HAA Regt. RCA that was published in 1945? I scanned and saved a copy of it some time ago, so let me know if you would like a copy.

[centurion]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
According to the 2 pdr manual (Mk II to IIIA Carriage) the gun is fired on the wheels during an “Emergency Action”. Below is a drawing (modified from another source) of the 2 pdr as it would be set up. There would be a handspike inserted into the handspike socket so that one of the gun numbers could move the gun left or right to track targets.

This ties in with the photo (in Anti Tank Weapons by Chamberlain and Gander 1974) that sparked off my original enquiry. In this the hand spike has been inserted
Thanks

[Doug Knight]

John

I have a copy of the 2 HAA history – thanks.

On the 2-pounder ammunition – Hogg (Allied artillery of World War 2) says that there was a 2-pr High Explosive round and he gives the fuse number etc. This is not supported by the 2-pounder manual for the towed gun or its 2 amendments. For the Mark I gun. there was a 2-pounder shell Mark I with a small Lyddite charge, but the fuse separated on impact so the round was withdrawn. It was replaced with the 2-pr shot in several Marks. I consider Hogg to be reliable, and his details suggest there was one, but… There is no evidence of 2-pr HE being manufactured in Canada and we made millions of rounds. The 2-pr anti-tank gun started at Mark IX, with the previous ones being naval guns, so it might have been a naval round, but I don’t think they were interchangeable with the army ammunition.

In the contest of the times, I can see HE rounds not being issued to the tanks, because they had a coaxial MG to deal with infantry – the Royal Artillery had only a detachment Bren gun – if that.

Do you know of any good 2-pounder colour photos?

Doug

[John McGillivray]

Doug,

What I have is an e-book copy of the “Handbook of the 2-pdr Anti-Tank Gun on Mark II to IIIA Carriages” In the section on Ammunition it states:

“The type of projectile can be distinguished by the colours with which it is painted. All solid shot is painted black, while H.E. shell is yellow”.

Also at the end there is a coloured drawing of the ammunition. It shows four types of projectiles: Service Shot, H.E. Shell, Practice Shot and Flathead.

Sorry I don't have any colour photos of the gun.

John

[Gunner]

Hi Guys:

We may need to get an expert's opinion here. John Carlin is probably the world's foremost ammunition collector and ordnance historian (jjcarlin@lineone.net).

I'll send him a summary of our thread/string and ask his opinion on 2 pounder HE rounds.

Cheers! Mike

P.S. I wouldn't want to do an anti-tank engagement with the 2 pounder's wheels down: no spade to stop recoil, crappy traverse with the guy on the handspike controlling the traverse not the gunner (real hard to track a moving target that way) and poor likelihood of a target round first shot. Yikes!

[Doug Knight]

Hi

This seems to be turning into a quest, so we may as well establish exact content:

Ian Hogg - British and American Artillery of World War 2 - Greenhill books, 2002 edition, page 75.
He lists:
Shot AP Mk 10T - solid steel shot with tracer
Shot APCBC Mk 9BT - solid steel shot with penetrative and ballistic caps and tracer
Shell AP Mk 1 - piercing projectile with a small Lyddite charge and Base Fuse no 281 with tracer. This was scrapped as the fuse tended to separate on impact
and "contrary to many pubished statements" Shell HE Mk 2T - a pointed shell with TNT filling and Base Percussion Fuse No. 243.

All the above are confirmed in the War Office Handbook for the Ordnance QF 2-pr Marks IX and X on Carriages QF 2-pr Marks I and II, Land Service 1938, and Amdt 1 and Amdt 2 (dated 1940 that also changed the title to include the MK III carriage.

The Handbook amdt 2 also adds an AP Shot Mk IIT and the Flathead practice shot.

The British stopped manufacturing the 2-pr ammunition in early 1943.

According to Dept of Munitions and Supply (Canada) records, we produced 2,553.863 rounds of 2-pr AP shot and 60,713 rounds of FLathead 2-pr shot to 31 Dec 1943. No mention of a 2-pr shell. We also produced a Naval Mk VIII 2-pr round.

Doug

[centurion]

Originally posted by Gunner
Hi Guys:


P.S. I wouldn't want to do an anti-tank engagement with the 2 pounder's wheels down: no spade to stop recoil, crappy traverse with the guy on the handspike controlling the traverse not the gunner (real hard to track a moving target that way) and poor likelihood of a target round first shot. Yikes!

Does anyone know how long it took to transform the 2 pdr from wheels to the all round firing position? I certainly don't but there may have been times when with tanks rolling over the hill towards you that it might have been too long? I've often wondered why every country's 37 to 40 mm AT guns (Czech Skoda M37, Denmark Mascen Model 35, Germany PAK35/36 L45,Italy Cannone contracarro da37/45, Japan Type 94 & Type 97,Sweden 37 mm Bofors, USA M3A1, USSR 37mm Model 30 L/45 to name but a few) were designed for fire from a 'conventional' carriage whilsr Britain went for the heavier and more complex 2 pdr equipment. I've seen one comment that British tactical doctrines assumed that AT guns would engage from well prepared dug in positions (obviously the Germans had borrowed all the copies of Liddel Harte from the library). Does any one have any material to support or derstroy this supposition? If not wild speculative but well entrenched opinions would be interesting.

[Doug Knight]

Hi

Rereading my last posting indicates an error - the handbook does not/not mention the HE shell mentioned by Hogg.

Doug

[Doug Knight]

Hi

My understanding is that the British tactical experiments in the 1920s and 1930s indicated that anti-tank guns had to be prepared to meet threats from unexpected directions. As a result they wrote all-round traverse into the specification and this resulted in the platform with the three-trail base.

There was a significant difference in the Mark I and II carriages. The Mark I had a front leg that folded up and two angled legs that split for firing or joined together to be the towing leg. The wheels were permanently attached and rotated up off the ground.

The Mark II reversed this with the single (now rear) leg with the towing hook and the side legs folding up beside the shield. The wheels were removed completely for firing.

The wheels were fitted with a quick release and it was a handspike lift and yank to get them off - essentially seconds. If the tanks were approaching rapidly, this provide additional motivation. However, keep in mind that the British frequently portee'd the guns in the desert, and fired them from the truck.

Doug

[John McGillivray]

I have found photos of the three types of carriages used on the 2pdr Anti-tank gun. From top to bottom, the Mk.I, the Mk. II and the Canadian 6-pounder carriage.

[Doug Knight]

John

Nice photos.

There were 4 carriages - Mark I seen here, Mark II and Mark III being very close with the changes being largely manufacturing and some mods, and the Mark IV that was a 6-pounder carriage with the 2-pounder cradle recoil mechanism and barrel. So far as I have found, we produced only the Mark IV in Canada, although it was also produced elsewhere in the UK and I think Australia.

Doug

[Phil Waterman]

A while back I got a GM company magazine showing AT guns be built at the Regina GM plant http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/R...itankgunsL.JPG

[Doug Knight]

Dominion Engineering Works manufactured the 2-pounder barrels in Canada, and Canadian General Electric and Regina Industries both manufactured the Mark IV carriages. Regina Industries went on to produce the 6-pounder anti-tank gun carriages that were almost identical. Regina Industries were a bit unique in that their production line for the carriages was set up as a continuous operation, like a car production line.

Doug

[John McGillivray]

The original caption on the IWM site, of the last photo (CAN 2624) that I posted, stated that it was in an armaments factory in Canada. So it may be showing the production line in the Regina Industries plant.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Doug Knight
Ian Hogg - British and American Artillery of World War 2 - Greenhill books, 2002 edition, page 75.
He lists:
...........and "contrary to many pubished statements" Shell HE Mk 2T - a pointed shell with TNT filling and Base Percussion Fuse No. 243.
Doug

The 40mm "Shell, HE Mk 2T" is the projectile normally loaded in 40mm Bofors cartridges. While an identical diameter of 40mm to the 2pdr AP Shot, there is a marked ballistic difference to the projectile shape, even extending to the position of the drive band relative to the shell crimp cannelure. The 40mm Bofors projectile, however, was normally fitted with a No 251 fuze being a direct action impact fuze. There is no mention in the Bofors ammunition listings of a "Base Percussion Fuze No 243", so perhaps that IS an application for the 2pdr?

[Tony Smith]

So if the 2T 40mm projectile isn't the HE shell used in the 2pdr, what is? Dunno the ID of it, but this pic shows the 2pdr HE projectile has a much shorter base and a more truncated nose than the Bofors 2T HE shell. Note that the Fuze is a nose fuze, not a base fuze.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

See 2 pdr AT Gun Mk.II (with Side Shields) Walk Around

H.