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  #1  
Old 19-01-15, 00:57
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Keith Webb Keith Webb is offline
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Default The Snakes Alive CMP Wiring Project

The Snakes Alive CMP wiring project.

In the process of doing some wiring on my FGT I found myself wondering just how should the wiring look and be routed on a CMP. I have spent a lot of time over the past 40 years looking at, photographing and collecting CMPs and parts and have been fortunate to have quite a collection of images and some original looms. So, with the aid of these images, and even the loan of some precious looms from others the aim is to provide as complete as possible record of how things should go for the purist. Please feel free to share images of original wiring both in situ on vehicles or new old stock if you are so fortunate.

I am initially concentrating on Ford Cab 13 types but also have a new Chevrolet wiring loom to photograph.

I am posting this on both the Maple Leaf Up forum and the Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles Facebook group.

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  #2  
Old 19-01-15, 01:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Webb View Post
The Snakes Alive CMP wiring project.


I am posting this on both the Maple Leaf Up forum and the Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles Facebook group.
Crikey Keith,
When I read the title I thought you had found a snake in the wiring

Anyway, an interesting project.

cheers Richard
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  #3  
Old 19-01-15, 21:23
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Webb View Post
I am posting this on both the Maple Leaf Up forum and the Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles Facebook group.
Keith,

Great project! Would be nice if you / we could collect enough information for MLU members to piece together their own wiring loom.

Thanks,
Hanno

PS: I hope you are directing people to mapleleafup.net instead of mapleleafup.org - or was it that long ago since you starting to hunt down the snake
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  #4  
Old 19-01-15, 22:19
Lauren Child Lauren Child is offline
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Great project I was wondering how cables were supposed to be routed.
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  #5  
Old 19-01-15, 22:59
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Default Looking for ways to make information more useful

Hi Keith

Great idea, I have been frustrated in the past by not being able to make this wiring harness information understandable, and usable. I have Chevy Pat 13 Late, Pat 13 Early, and Pat 12 harnesses staked out on large plywood panels, which I have used to make harnesses for my own CMPs and a few others. (No I'm not looking to do more harnesses until I get 3 other restoration projects out of my shop. I have not really been able to work in the shop for 3 months because of a shoulder problem.)

My problem is in figuring out how to reproduce at full size these boards to share with people. Take a look at what is already up on my website http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...nformation.htm
http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...%20Harness.htm

What can be done practically to make this information in particular the pin panels reproducible? Any thoughts or tricks for making digital photos which can produce 1 to 1 size accuracy? These things are huge 3 x 8 feet.

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What I've done is spread out on paper covered plywood the complete harnesses from my trucks, which fortunately had not been butchered or modified. Each branch has been fastened down with notes on each lead. Wiring diagram ID number, function, gauge and color code.
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Some good news the differences for the Chevy Pat 13 to accommodate the different wheelbases is simple as all the harness are the same back to the connections inline with the transfer case the rear harness then is simple to adjust for 101, 134, or 158 wheel base. The differences for the different dash is similarly relatively easy to account for by making all the dash leads longer.

This is an interesting project and hope that we can add this information succesfully to the CMP knowledge base.

Cheers Phil
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  #6  
Old 20-01-15, 00:11
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Default Info

Good to see there's interest in it... my aim is to not only show what goes where but also to show as far as possible what things looked like when new.

As an example how many know the speedo cable on a Ford CMP should be secured by a clip on one of the rear valley cover bolts on the engine?

The condition most people find a CMP these days is far from original so having some sort of guide I think will be really helpful which is why it's great to see the likes of experts such as Phil Waterman chiming in.

Just on that note Phil - probably the best way to photographically document your pinboards (which I think are an excellent idea) is to carefully take a series of photographs with the camera on a tripod, moving it a measured distance each time so there is overlap to allow the photos to be stitched together. Don't use a wide angle lens because the distortion makes it difficult to align things. You can then create a panorama which can be scaled to show the whole thing or zoom into details as needed.

Just had a look at your page on wiring which is just the sort of thing we need to let everyone know is available, fantastic work. We spend so much time reinventing the wheel! I will concentrate on doing the Ford version of this.

There are of course places such as Vintage Wiring Harness here who make new versions and say they have patterns to make harnesses for Ford and Chevrolet CMPs. I've seen the wires which are a modern, safe sort of facsimile of the originals.

Your point about the voltage cut out rather than proper fusing or breaker is a good one and I think something like that should be incorporated, hidden behind the dash.
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  #7  
Old 20-01-15, 00:46
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I am currently wiring up a Dodge WC57 Command Car and even with original wiring harnesses it's not easy to figure out exactly how they were installed.
Keith's suggestion to include detailed photos of everything in situ is a very good one.

David
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  #8  
Old 22-01-15, 01:13
Jacques Reed Jacques Reed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Webb View Post
Please feel free to share images of original wiring both in situ on vehicles or new old stock if you are so fortunate.
Hi Keith,

Just to kick it off:

Not to be forgotten are the small harnesses on the light switch and Ignition/fuel gauge switch plates.

I have attached a photo of a NOS Ford CMP Ignition/Fuel gauge harness. It is complete minus the bullets. I unsweated the bullets to use on a new harness I made up as I do not trust 70 year old wiring.

The bullets going into the original switches were the more straight type as opposed to the rounded type that were used where it joins the main harness. One is still left on wire No. 45 at top of photo.

Of interest is that wire for the Autopulse (electric fuel pump). The switch plate it came off however did not have that switch fitted so it appears they may have included it in the harness at manufacture just in case.

Hope this is of some interest.

Cheers,
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  #9  
Old 22-01-15, 07:12
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Stop trying to solve other guys' problems. The easiest way to record the wiring panels is to photograph them with a digital camera. There is software that stitches several images together side by each parallel to the plate (to remember an old CBC radio comedy character and his bacon and eggs). The next guy can either use your individual pictures to make his own mosaic, or if he is smart and has friends with a 36" plotter, makes a paper layout on a single sheet.
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  #10  
Old 22-01-15, 08:09
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Default Harness

Jacques, those wires look a bit different to the ones on the NOS looms I have - the attached pic is of the lighting switch loom.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques Reed View Post
Hi Keith,

Just to kick it off:

Not to be forgotten are the small harnesses on the light switch and Ignition/fuel gauge switch plates.

I have attached a photo of a NOS Ford CMP Ignition/Fuel gauge harness. It is complete minus the bullets. I unsweated the bullets to use on a new harness I made up as I do not trust 70 year old wiring.

The bullets going into the original switches were the more straight type as opposed to the rounded type that were used where it joins the main harness. One is still left on wire No. 45 at top of photo.

Of interest is that wire for the Autopulse (electric fuel pump). The switch plate it came off however did not have that switch fitted so it appears they may have included it in the harness at manufacture just in case.

Hope this is of some interest.

Cheers,
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  #11  
Old 19-02-18, 02:47
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Bill Drew had original Chev CMP wiring looms ( $15 each ), the main long loom with all the shorter off shoots to the accessories. I did buy two many years ago but I resorted to cutting sections out and re-soldering ends on. They were stacked up in the corner of a room in one of the many yards he had around the suburbs.
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  #12  
Old 30-03-18, 09:26
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For reference, source Mike Reed:

“WIRING HARNESS. Thought to be for the early style cab, 11 & 12 Ford. Never used. 4 switches, 3 light sockets. Metal identification tag C11Q-14401C.“

C11Q-14401C is the latest version of "Wiring - cowl" for the Cab 11 and 12 - ref. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...334#post222334

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  #13  
Old 07-04-18, 00:25
Dave Schindel Dave Schindel is offline
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I have a NOS wiring harness, supposed to fit a F15a cab 11, C11ADF-14401B. If someone can confirm the application of this harness I will take some pics and post them here. I have most of the wires identified and labeled . If anyone knows what the ADF part of the number means that would be great.
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Old 07-04-18, 00:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Schindel View Post
I have a NOS wiring harness, supposed to fit a F15a cab 11, C11ADF-14401B. If someone can confirm the application of this harness I will take some pics and post them here. I have most of the wires identified and labeled . If anyone knows what the ADF part of the number means that would be great.
Dave, the C11ADF in the number designates this is an part for the Ford C11ADF Station Wagon / Heavy Utility.

Good pics of looms on a white (paper) background are always of interest.

Thanks,
Hanno
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Old 07-04-18, 04:54
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a station wagon................good grief
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  #16  
Old 07-04-18, 05:09
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Default Response to Terry......

The easiest way to record the wiring panels is to photograph them with a digital camera.

How many pictures of my existing loom from a digital camera would be needed to photograph and stitch into a panoramic view in order to rebuild this wiring harness.

It was easier to cut off everything and work from scratch....in my case Phil Waterman made me a harness copied from an existing old wiring harness that was still complete. It made the rewiring a breeze as he had followed the exact color scheme from the shop manual and even used repro connectors with everything soldered. He had so much fun at this very labor intensive project that he has never made another one since........ Lying underneath my truck snaking wires back and forth , guided by a copy of the wiring diagram and working with properly colored wires, I really appreciated the efforts that goes into making a new harness....... and wondered where he found the time and patience to do it so perfectly.
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  #17  
Old 27-04-18, 06:29
John Winfield John Winfield is offline
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Default Wire Gauges

I'm now looking at replacing the wiring in my 1943 F15A, and have been trying to piece together what I'm going to need, using the harness and wiring diagram from the shop manual. But it doesn't include the wire gauges.

Has anybody tabulated the wire gauge of the various wires?

John
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  #18  
Old 27-04-18, 20:15
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Default I'd use the Chevy wire gauage list

Hi John

As the vehicles are are very close to being identical I'd suggest using the Chevy wire gauge as shown on the wiring diagram. Given that much/or all the wire used was steel wire when you change over to copper wire it should have no problem carring the load.

I did a lot of checking around when doing the harness with my trucks and have had no problems. I've posted my notes on wiring harness http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...nformation.htm

Cheers Phil
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Old 28-04-18, 06:14
John Winfield John Winfield is offline
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Phil:

Thanks for your info - I had already looked it over and it was very helpful. But there seem to be some basic differences between the Ford and the Chev (voltmeter vs ammeter, for example). I probably got about 75% of what I needed. I guess I'll make my best guess for the rest, and when in doubt - go a little thicker.

John
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  #20  
Old 06-07-18, 04:46
Jacques Reed Jacques Reed is offline
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Default Ford CMP cowl wiring- Australian cab

Good Day,

This is probably a question for the Australian members as it is about the wiring to the two headlights on those Ford CMP trucks with Australian cabs.

Just trying to nut out the wiring on the front cowl from a very ratty remnant of a cowl harness and upper terminal block. The Ford CMP Maintenance Manual does not cover the wiring from the dip switch to the Hi and Low beams of the two lights as used on these trucks so it is not the final word in this regard.

I have traced out the wiring as best I can with a multimeter and exposing some of the original colour wire. The wiring to the left side of the cowl seems pretty straightforward from the remnant. Looks like the left sidelight has about a 24" tail on it to connect to the harness as shown in last photo. A 24" tail on the right sidelight would nicely connect it to the single wire No. 6 shown in the photos. Likewise the tails on the right headlight, if the same length as those on the left side headlight, would connect nicely into the short tails at the terminal block. We all know how Henry liked to keep it simple and common.

The short tails on the Hi and Low beam terminals have me wondering if a double connector was used at those positions from the dip switch to the terminal block. It would also allow the right hand headlight to be plugged into them. See example on the low beam wire No.4. Not shown is the Hi beam indicator wire which I assume attaches to the terminal strip with an eye or could also be plugged into the back of a double adaptor with a bullet end if used? The other option would be to use an eye end to the Hi and Low beam terminals at the back side but I don't see any sign that ones were ever attached there.

I am also guessing that the power from the light switch goes to a terminal on the lower terminal strip and then to the dip switch input terminal.

Does anyone have an original dip switch to terminal block harness to compare, or have seen original double connectors used there?

Cheers,
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  #21  
Old 06-07-18, 06:42
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Default Dip switch and junction block wiring

Here are some I took of one of Tony Wheeler's F60S a couple of years ago - a pity it's too dirty to see the wire codes but you can see the doubled up wire on the terminal block. Sorry I didn't trace and number them!
Hope they help - it's not often you come across original wiring these days.
The wiring to the dipswitch is perilously close to the clutch pedal and you can see how it has been wearing on one of the wires. The terminals are also very close to the splash shield which is often either removed or has been cut away in that area.
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  #22  
Old 06-07-18, 09:22
Jacques Reed Jacques Reed is offline
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Default Ford CMP cowl wiring- Australian cab, dip switch

Hi Keith,

Thanks for that information and photos.

It answers two questions:
It doesn't look like double connectors are used even if they would do the job, and it appears the leads from the dip switch go into the rear of the middle and lower terminals of the upper junction block (Hi and low beam respectively)
I will therefore connect the right headlight to the short tails at the junction block with just single bullet connectors and bring the leads from the dip switch to the rear of the junction block.

I will wire it up that way unless something else comes along to prove otherwise. I notice there is a small clip on the foot plate near the clutch pedal bump pad which may help to prevent the dip switch harness from getting chafed.

Thanks again,
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Old 08-07-18, 03:15
Jacques Reed Jacques Reed is offline
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Default Ford CMP cowl wiring Australian cab- headlights

Good day Again,

Next question: I noticed on some headlight reflectors I have salvaged that some had an extra hole above the main headlight globe with a smaller globe fitted there. Some reflectors I have found didn't have this extra hole.

The parts manual shows the smaller globe fitment for both the early and later cabs.

So the question is where does the smaller globe fit into the scheme of things?

With a twin filament headlight globe it would not be the Low beam.

Is it wired in parallel with the sidelights so that in effect you have parking lights on when you have the sidelights on? This would however result in the parking lights being on when switching on "Tail & Side" or "Tail, Side & Head" This might not be acceptable to the military for darkened driving.

Perhaps they were just a later replacement for the single base reflectors and the small light was ignored and never connected.

I probably will run sealed beams anyway for the greater road safety they provide. I don't always pursue 100% originality where safety is concerned but it would be nice to know where those small lights in the reflectors fit in on Australian CMP's.

Thanks for any help or any ideas on the subject.

Cheers,
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Old 08-07-18, 06:38
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Hi Jacques. The small bulb is the park light. The headlight bulb has high/low and earths through the body. Were the park light type just standard commercial ones from cars that never had separate side lights?
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Old 08-07-18, 08:45
Jacques Reed Jacques Reed is offline
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Default Ford CMP park lights?

Hi Lynn,

Yes they were just small bayonet globes and I see that type of reflector is still available for old civilian Fords that had the parkers in the headlights. It still doesn't make sense what they are doing on a CMP truck if there is no dedicated switch to control them.

The reflectors, single and double light bases, definitely came out of various Ford CMP trucks that I scrounged. There is no reference to parking lights in any CMP manual that I can see.

I am thinking more and more maybe they used whatever was available during the war and if they were short of single light base reflectors they threw in double base ones. Just because they were there they didn't have to be connected perhaps? Still doesn't explain why double light base reflectors are shown in the parts manual however. Hmmmm!

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Old 08-07-18, 08:54
Jacques Reed Jacques Reed is offline
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Default Ford CMP truck single light base reflector

Here's a reflector with only provision for the headlight base- no parking light. Also from a Ford CMP truck cab 13.

Cheers,
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Old 08-07-18, 09:31
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Jacques, I have them with the park light apetures in my Bren Carrier (Ford commercial headlights) They are the same as the lights on the 161 riveted LP1 carriers built in Australia.
My headlights have Ford Twolite on the glass. I'm not sure if yours are exactly the same?
I seem to recall reading from a post by Bob Carriere, that some early CMPs never had separate front side(marker lights?)
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Old 08-07-18, 17:30
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I think what might be happening with these dual lamp reflectors is nothing more than stocks of commercial parts at the Ford plant that had no where to go when civilian production ceased. However, since they were readily available, they were used up first in CMP production.

Nothing more different really than the early pattern rectangular instrument clusters both Ford and Chevrolet used in CMPs up until around late 1943. They had piles of chromed and nickel plates ones in stores when CMP production started and they were used up first, with a coat of military paint over the trim. as they were used up, the military production clusters came on stream that were simple paint over bare metal.

As the commercial headlamp reflectors were used up, the newer, simplified military ones took over.

David
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Old 09-07-18, 00:03
Jacques Reed Jacques Reed is offline
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Default Ford CMP dual lamp reflectors

Hu David,

Yes, I now think what you point out is the reason for the two lamp reflectors on some Ford CMP trucks. They just had a lot of old stock to use up.

As for the parts manual showing the two lamp type, probably that was the only type of reflector available at the time so they showed it as it was.

It was so long ago I salvaged these reflectors that I cannot remember If I unplugged the tail from the small lamp to any existing harness. Most likely there wasn't even a harness there otherwise I would have grabbed that too for a pattern. The original cowl harness I now have is just a recent acquisition and only three wires go to the sides: High beam, Low beam, and Sidelight. Where the harness is still covered there are only three wires in it so no extra wire to the small lamps exists. I'd now bet that the tail to the small lamp just dangled in space not connected to anything!

Thanks Lynn and David for your inputs.

Cheers,
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Old 09-07-18, 23:51
Jacques Reed Jacques Reed is offline
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Originally Posted by Jacques Reed View Post
Hu David,

I'd now bet that the tail to the small lamp just dangled in space not connected to anything!

Thanks Lynn and David for your inputs.

Cheers,
Good Day,

Just revisited Keith's photos. The answer was there all the time. (see dangling in space lead from headlight tail harness)


Should have gone to Specsavers!


Cheers,
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