M38A1 unit markings advise

[wingnut]

Hi can anyone on here please advise me on marking my M38A1 C.D.N.1.I would like to mark it up as a jeep that was serving in west Germany in 1968. There is no trace of any original markings as the first civilian owner had the exterior of the body stripped back to bare metal. I did find the engine rebuild plate showing rebuild at 23 Base w/shops Wetter in 1968.So I thought this could be a good time frame at which to do a motor pool restoration. Many thanks for reading Kind Regards Bernard.

[maple_leaf_eh]

I am not well enough informed on the 1960s period markings of the M38A1 to give explicit advice. My knowledge is based on Canadian experience in the 1970s.

Clive Law hosts a web site called www.ramtank.ca, and he lists by registration number many Canadian vehicle types. There is a tab for M38A1, and where available, a photo. You might find inspiration there.

[wingnut]

Hi. Thank you for your reply I will do as you suggested. Kind Regards. Bernard.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by wingnut

So I thought this could be a good time frame at which to do a motor pool restoration.

Bernard,

Which unit do you have in mind? I can help you but I don't understand what you mean by a 'motor pool restoration.'

Cheers,
Dan.

[Ed Storey]

'Motor Pool Restoration' is a military vehicle restoration term for restoring a vehicle to how it would look while sitting in the vehicle compound as opposed to off the assembly line or in the field.

[wingnut]

Hi. Thank you both for your replies. The only known military history I have for this jeep is that it had a major engine rebuild at 23 Base work shops in 1968. The jeep is in very good condition in all ways . I am in the process of painting the body in the colour I have made up from a sample found on the shovel bracket under the hood as the jeep is now painted in a very dark green that's just not correct. Also I have removed the phony U.S. markings and white stars which has meant I have to do a complete repaint. My knowledge of C.D.N. units and vehicle marking is almost zero apart from I know there is normally a maple leaf on the right hand side, I also thought that at the 1968 time frame the jeep may still have been in the semi gloss that I'm using . Kind Regards. Bernard.

[Dan Martel]

Well, a lot happened within the brigade group over 1968. In January, Brigadier James C Gardner took command. In May, it was redesignated 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group from Canadian Infantry Brigade Group. The M109 self-propelled howitzer and Lynx reconnaissance vehicle arrived over the summer. The service battalion began to operate provisionally, and the tenth (and last) barracks, Fort Qu'Appelle in Iserlohn, was taken over.

As for choice of units to represent on your vehicle, you have the following:
HQ 4 CIBG,
4 Signal Squadron,
HQ 4 CMBG and Signal Squadron,
Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians),
C Squadron, 8th Canadian Hussars (Princess Louise's),
1 Royal Canadian Horse Artillery,
1 Surface-to-Surface Missile Battery, RCA,
4 Field Squadron, RCE,
2nd Bn, The Royal Canadian Regiment,
2nd Bn, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry,
1e Bn, Royal 22e Régiment,
B Company, 2e Bn, Royal 22e Régiment,
1 Field Ambulance, RCAMC,
1 Transport Company, RCASC,
4 Ordnance Field Park, RCOC,
4 Field Workshop, RCEME,
plus the brigade, artillery and armour Light Aid Detachments, RCEME.

Pick one and let me know.

FYI: By 1968 the 1st Canadian Division insignia (the gold maple leaf on a red patch) had been replaced by the Mobile Command diamond (see my avatar). If you would rather your vehicle have the 1st Division insignia, it will have to be for a vehicle prior to January, 1967.

Cheers,
Dan.

[wingnut]

Hi Dan thank you for your help in this. I have give some consideration to the choices of the units you so kindly provided and I think I would pick the Lord Strathcona's horse in the 1968 time frame . Sorry for the delay in replying but been a bit tied up today. Kind Regards. Bernard.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by wingnut

I think I would pick the Lord Strathcona's horse in the 1968 time frame.

Excellent choice. A fine and proud unit.

Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) took over as the armoured regiment from the Fort Garry Horse in 1967 and served in 4 CMBG until 1970. It was quartered at Fort Beausejour in Iserlohn. Fort Beausejour was a pre-war German Army cavalry barracks. The regiment operated 56 Centurion Mk11 main battle tanks.

Tactical markings on the vehicles would not have changed from those being used by the FGH, as all markings were laid down in regulations. According to 'Staff Duties in the Field' the unit sign for an armoured regiment in an infantry brigade group was a red over yellow rectangle containing the serial '2' in white. The photograph below shows this on a centurion tank.

The formation sign would be the red rectangle with a gold maple leaf of 1 Canadian Infantry Division. Please see the example below.

I don't have a photograph of a jeep with the correct unit and formation signs on them, but the picture below will show you how they would have been positioned on the front of the vehicle.

Note that the unit sign is on the driver's left, front and rear, while the formation sign is on the driver's right, front and rear.

The size and placement details are as follows:

Section 2 - Formation Signs
8. Descriptions
a. The approved designs are described hereunder:
(1) 1st Canadian Infantry Division. A red rectangle with a gold maple leaf superimposed.
(8) Canadian Base Units Europe. A blue diamond with a horizontal red bar.

9. Sizes
(a) Approved sizes are:
(1) Rectangles and Diamonds
Large - 9" wide, 6 1/2" high
Small - 7" wide, 5 1/2" high
(b) The small size will be used only where the available surface is too small to accommodate the large size.

10. Location
d. On all other vehicles, the sign will be placed in line with the unit sign where possible, on the rear, on a prominent vertical surface as near to the extreme right as possible, and on the front, in one of the positions shown in order of preference below, so as to be visible from a ground-level position directly behind and in front of the vehicle respectively:
(1) on the front surface of the right front fender; or
(2) on a vertical or near vertical surface as near as possible to the extreme right front of the vehicle; or
(3) on a plate attached to the right front of the vehicle.

Section 3 - Unit Signs
13. Description
a. Regular Field Units
(1) A serial number, as allotted by the field commander concerned, in white, superimposed on a coloured rectangle, as specified in Appendix F, Canadian Edition, "Staff Duties in the Field".

14. Size
Where practicable, unit signs will be 9 1/2" wide by 8 1/2" high or, for circular signs, 8" in diameter. Other wise signs will be 7" wide by 5" high or, for circular signs, 6" in diameter.

15. Location
d. On all other vehicles, the sign will be placed on the rear, in line with the formation sign where possible, on a prominent vertical surface as near to the extreme left as possible, and on the front, in one of the positions shown in order of preference below, so as to be visible from a ground-level position directly behind and in front of the vehicle respectively:
(1) on the front surface of the Left front fender; or
(2) on a vertical or near vertical surface as near as possible to the extreme left front of the vehicle; or
(3) on a plate attached to the left front of the vehicle.

Table 3 Unit Signs Vehicle Markings
Serial 1 / RCAC / Rectangular / Red upper left, yellow lower right diagonal.


If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask.

Cheers,
Dan.

[wingnut]

Hi. Dan Thank you very much for the information you have provided for me. I am very pleased that I will now be able to do justice to my jeep and mark it up in a livery more in keeping with it's past history. When I have finished repainting the jeep I will apply the markings as you described and post some photos here on this thread for your approval . Many thanks and Kind Regards. Bernard