Panther Now in Trouble

[David Dunlop]

If I recall correctly, stories of this Panther surfaced some 20 years ago. I believe it is one of the Post War production units built for the British Army and the gentleman that owns it now bought it in England when it was disposed of there , shipped it back to Germany and fully restored it.

http://news.yahoo.com/german-authori...115051714.html

Probably quite legally demilled 20 years ago, but he his likely going to be raked over the coals for not keeping the demill requirements up to date.

David

[chris vickery]

Keeping up with demill regs?
This confuses me unless they have some strange laws.
Here in Canada the demil of weapons etc is usually grandfathered, although difficult to prove when and where they were originally done.
Weapons regulations change from time to time but the spirit of the law makes anything being demilled today to be done to current standards. We do not have a law stating old deacts need to be updated to todays standards. That would be ridiculous.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

As herr Flick's Panther is well known among tank enthusiasts, I was a bit surprised to read the police have seized it after such a long time.

But next I read that he was apprehended on being under suspicion of fencing Nazi art and memorabilia, a serious breach of law in Germany. Let's hope the Panther will end up at a good home....

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Some background info on the Panther here: http://preservedtanks.com/Profile.as...ID=48&Select=1

This Panther has a plaque on its glacis plate identifying it as number four of the Panthers and Jagdpanthers built by the British. It is fitted with swirl-cowl exhausts. It was bought by a scrap merchant in a War Department sale in the 1950’s and remained in his scrap yard in Surrey, England, until it was discovered in October 1977. It was then recovered, in a badly damaged and incomplete state, and transported to Germany. It has since been restored to running order, although it is still missing some fittings.

[Alex van de Wetering]

But next I read that he was apprehended on being under suspicion of fencing Nazi art and memorabilia, a serious breach of law in Germany

Hanno, are you sure it's Flick? I read on the web somewhere that Flick sold the Panther 10 years ago (?).

Alex

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

If there's no more to this story and it's just because it's a tank and/or the 'demill' specs weren't kept up to date this really sucks.

If it's because a government bureaucracy can't tell the difference between an arms dealer selling modern weapons to terrorists and a 78 year old with a WW2 artifact in his garage this double sucks.

[m kenny]

This is part of a much bigger investigation into stolen Nazi artwork being sold on the black market. It is claimed he was involved trying to sell 2 large bronze horses for several million dollars. Lots of people arrested and stolen property recovered.

[Darrell Zinck]

Originally Posted by m kenny

This is part of a much bigger investigation into stolen Nazi artwork being sold on the black market. It is claimed he was involved trying to sell 2 large bronze horses for several million dollars. Lots of people arrested and stolen property recovered.

Hi m Kenny

Not so according to the article:

...The collector came to authorities' attention in an investigation into black market Nazi-era art that in May turned up two massive bronze horse statues that once stood in front of Adolf Hitler's chancellery. Those were in the possession of another man, who maintains he is the rightful owner...

(my Bold)

regards
Darrell

[m kenny]

This article says otherwise. http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1035230.html

Note I said 'involved' and not 'found in possesion of'

Either way it is not about the Panther.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Bear in mind that the subject of Nazi memorabilia is very politically sensitive in Germany. Publicly displaying and/or using the Nazi swastika, SS Sig-rune etc. is forbidden in Germany and the Netherlands.

So if anything, the Panther was a side catch when the authorities were looking for stolen Nazi sculptures. I can see why they had to take the Panther, 88-mm gun, torpedo, V1 missile, etc. in custody in such a nation-wide raid.

PS: attached some pictures of the Panther, borrowed from articles published on the internet. First picture is the Panther as found in the UK in the 1970s

[jdmcm]

Pretty common for the police to go overboard when dealing with such matters. They are all about the "optics" these days. We see it in Canada all the time when they raid petty drug dealers and come away with large caches of "machine guns" which they lay out on tables for the press to photograph and it makes great soundbites for the evening news...of course more often than not these are legal semi-auto guns and air-soft versions of real guns...except when they give everything back later on nobody is ever around to cover that story...but it sure makes them look tough on crime and gangs and help justify their armored vehicles and members running around in black fatigues with subdued insignia and balaclava's over their faces...doesn't do much to scare the criminals or terrorists but sure scares hell out of mom and pop...

[m kenny]

The press reports in Germany say that he had paperwork showing the guns had been rendered unworkable but when he was raided they found they were fully functioning. If so he will lose the lot.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi m kenny

As the article posted initially did not mention what you stated, you can see why I posted what I did.

With the article you subsequently posted, what you stated is slightly more clear but holding them for a period of time as collateral against a loan hardly makes him culpable in theft or illegal appropriation.

As I know little more and care even less, I shall bow out. Thank you.

regards
Darrell

[motto]

Not quite on topic I know but jdmcm raises a point.
Sensationalism beats simple news reporting and always has. A photograph of the 'weapons' found at a bikers home some years ago included steak and carving knives from the kitchen, an axe and offcuts of angle iron and water pipe from the workshop along with chisels and a baseball bat.
Another laughable one though not to the person involved was when a militaria collector was raided and found to be in possession of an empty launch tube from a Laws rocket. The fuss made would have you believe they had saved the world from this evil fellow. No matter that they are a throwaway item in the same way as an empty cartridge case and that you would even be hard pressed to beat someone up with one as they are so lightly constructed.
Don't let the facts stand in the way of a good story. The truth is out there somewhere!

David

[Tim Lovelock]

Looks quite the threat without tracks.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's another photo of Herr Flick's Panther tank.