Factory colours

cletrac (RIP) · #1 27-12-04, 01:34

Here's another colour question to ponder. I have a 1940 C8 and a 1943 HUP. They are both that yellowish green khaki colour on the interior and underneath even though the HUP exterior was oversprayed blue for the Navy or Air Force. That HUP made in August 1945 that was in Sask was the same, as were all the CMP's I've come across in the boondocks.(approx. 20 or so) Were all the CMPs except the ones that went to the desert painted this basic colour or am I just not coming across the other colours? I would have thought that by August 27th. 1945, they'd have gone to O-D if there was to be a change. What was the original undercarriage colour on the ones that you guys are working on? Here's a picture of an F60L and an F15 chassis to illustrate.

Phil Waterman · #2 27-12-04, 01:59

I found a similar tan color on some parts of my 42 C60S in particular on the front thenders and some of the floor plates.

Hanno Spoelstra · #3 27-12-04, 19:13

Quote:

Originally posted by cletrac
Were all the CMPs except the ones that went to the desert painted this basic colour or am I just not coming across the other colours?

Bill Gregg's 'Blueprint for Victory' (p.118, 1981), gives an outline of paint applied by Canadian manufacturers:

"The following information was obtained from the AEDB Design Record:
The paint applied by the manufacturer was considered the basic colour on top of which the Army would apply the camouflage disruptive colour. Originally, all vehicles going to the European Theatre of war were painted KHAKI GREEN #3 and those going to the Middle East LIGHT STONE #61 (both British standard formulae). Later KHAKI GREEN #3 was changed to BROWN #2 and eventually, after the U.S. military presence in England had reached strength, to U.S. OLIVE DRAB."

HTH,
Hanno
paint schemes for CMP trucks

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #4 27-12-04, 19:26

I suspect GM and Ford ignored regulations when producing CMP's. Two of my vehicles produced in 1943 that 'should' be Brown No.2, are khaki. One made in June 1944 that should be 'Olive Drab' is khaki. It would seem that whatever paint GM had in stock trumped whatever the army order of the day was. The 1944 vehicle does have Brown on parts that, when assembled and fitted to the truck, were oversprayed with khaki.

Keith Webb · #5 27-12-04, 20:28

When I worked at Hughes Auto Spares most of the panels and other CMP NOS spare parts were khaki although there some that were brown and even a few in light stone.
I have a NOS cab 12 upper grille which is in light stone with the part number stencilled in black.

Tony Smith · #6 28-12-04, 01:29

The guy on e-bay that keeps on selling NOS CMP mirrors each week ("I feel lucky to have found this and will never find another again!"), has had mirrors in Light Stone BSC61, Khaki No 3, Brown and Olive Drab. All boxes are apparently marked with the same part no and no distinction is marked for colour. These would be good to get for reference for original paint colours, if only people didn't fall for the "I will never find another " line and bid outrageously. I have bought a whole CMP for the price that some of these mirrors have attracted! I'm sure this guy won't be running out soon and has crate loads of these things.

Keith Webb · #7 28-12-04, 02:37

Not being an epay junkie these have passed me by.
What sort of money are people paying, and where is the seller located?
Is he on this forum?

Tony Smith · #8 28-12-04, 13:52

..have gone to US$71.00 (plus postage) and US$66.00 . The seller is in Buenos Aires, Argentina and must be sitting on all the NOS spares for Argie CMP's. This weeks' offering is only US$18.51 so far. But be quick, bid high and fast, because he doesn't know when he'll see another like this!

cmperry4 · #9 29-12-04, 09:11

Cletrac/David mention the HUP he saw in Sask. which he suggests it might have been originally of that indeterminate colour. if it's the same '45 I now have, it is yellow (see avatar), which appears to have been painted over faded RCAF blue - which shows in spots where the yellow flaked off. It looks like the exterior was stripped before it was repainted blue. The entire interior was resprayed in oobleck green, which I suppose must have some from stocks of military aircraft interior paint (a la early Land Rovers). However, I have been dismantling the truck and have found on a few interior spots, inside the dash panel and under the linoleum on the wheel house, that there is indeed olive drab, which must the the original post-44 factory colour. (see photo).

As for those mirrors - I wouldn't mind a set, but the prices people are willing to pay are a bit much. I keep being beat on EBay for gauges that shouldn't be as much as some people will bid.

cletrac (RIP) · #10 29-12-04, 14:53

That is the same HUP from Gronlid, Sask. The undercarriage is khaki (see photo)and that fender looks more khaki than olive drab.

cmperry4 · #11 29-12-04, 22:21

Yep, that's the same HUP - but I do confess I've been told I have a slight degree of colour blindness. Some OD might shift a bit yellow as it fades or ages. Whatever the factory paint job of the truck originally was, it shall be olive drab when I finally paint it.

I'm more curious about the parts that appear to have been painted in 'chassis black' - how much would have been painted like that before the military colour was applied? And would the engine have been factory painted 'Chevy blue' or some other colour, such as grey?

Meanwhile compare these two for khaki vs olive drab.

cletrac (RIP) · #12 29-12-04, 22:48

That back truck in your photo is quite a bit darker than olive drab. The mirror picture in this thread is more what you want. The chassis at the top of this page was likely original paint and there's no black. The Chev engines were a slate grey from the factory and if rebuilt they became khaki.
The main purpose of this thread was to see if any of the trucks were painted o-d from the factory (with o-d interior). From what I can see your HUP was likely all khaki from the factory and the military repainted it. When they did this they just closed the doors and sprayed what they coud get when standing beside the vehicle. The interior and undercarriage and drive train stayed the original colour. My HUP has 36000 miles with original engine and that's how they repainted it blue. I read somewhere that the staff cars had a light colour interior.

RHClarke · #13 29-12-04, 22:58

My 45 HUP was festooned with a cardboard type lining that was green in colour - not exactly OD (aging??). The lining was screwed to the sides and ceiling using pan head slotted machine screws. The lining covered a tar paper type of insolation that was glued directly to the walls and ceiling, but was slighly lighter than roofing felt or tar paper. The paint under the insolation was an OD type green that carried on to the divider and cab floor and exposed metal parts.

The only parts of my HUP that had different paint were the interior wheel well kick guards that sported a nice DS brown.

I suppose the only consistent thing about CMP paint schemes is their inconsistency...

R

Hanno Spoelstra · #14 30-12-04, 01:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Keith Webb
Not being an epay junkie these have passed me by.

Keith, see e-Bay parts.....

H.

Hanno Spoelstra · #15 30-12-04, 01:36

Quote:

Originally posted by cletrac
The main purpose of this thread was to see if any of the trucks were painted o-d from the factory (with o-d interior). From what I can see your HUP was likely all khaki from the factory and the military repainted it.

Yes, they were. During the latter part of WW2 Olive Drab SCC15 (not U.S. OD) was the basic colour applied by the manufacturer. Of course parts could be any colour, but when they left the factory vehicles by that time were sprayed Olive Drab SCC15 over all.
There was no inconsistency nor ignoring of regulations, though I confess research is lacking in areas. For example, possibly some contracts demanded a different basic colour. Also, after the shift to Brown SCC2, possibly vehicles for use in Canada were painted in left-over stocks of Khaki Green G3. And exactly when was the shift between colours made?

For reference, I have quoted the descriptions of Khaki Green G3 and Olive Drab SCC15 from Mike Starmer's and Mike Cooper's excellent articles on AFV Camouflage (see MAFVA Resources Page - these are the best researched resources on this subject available!):

Quote:

Middle Bronze Green 23 a.ka. Khaki Green G3/"Service Colour". In use: 1938-43, gloss until 1939. Usual base tone until replaced in 1942 with SCC2. Description: In its gloss form this is a dark rich yellow-green.

SCC15 Olive Drab. In use: May 1944-45 as standard overall tone. Description: Olive Drab - fresh olive drab - a very dark drab with showing quite a bit of green. Unlike US No.9 OD (very dark drab when new with a green hint, fading brown or grey in use) this fades green.

cletrac (RIP) · #16 30-12-04, 02:19

Hanno, I'm kind of thinking that most of the CMPs that stayed in Canada were painted that khaki green. I imagine that all the ones I came across spent their whole time in Canada and hence don't adhere to the overseas guidelines.

Hanno Spoelstra · #17 30-12-04, 02:59

Quote:

Originally posted by cletrac
Hanno, I'm kind of thinking that most of the CMPs that stayed in Canada were painted that khaki green. I imagine that all the ones I came across spent their whole time in Canada and hence don't adhere to the overseas guidelines.

David, indeed this could have been the case. We need as many as possible paint matches from survivors, like Geoff's '42 Ford F15A GS which has ample evidence of the original khaki green paint on the frame (still good under several layers of orange paint and hardened undercoating).

A difficult thing will be determinating if the 60+ year old weathered paint once was Khaki Green G3 or Olive Drab SCC15!

H.

cmperry4 · #18 30-12-04, 06:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
A difficult thing will be determining if the 60+ year old weathered paint once was Khaki Green G3 or Olive Drab SCC15!

Kind of what I'm now thinking.

Makes sense that trucks that never went overseas might have remained the khaki green - need to see some samples side by side to figure it out. I'll have to find that thread with those chips.

Thanks Dave for the info on engine and chassis colour

As for the interior colour of the staff car - although I would have thought they would have gone for lighter interior, but from the bits of "tarpaper" I've scraped off the oobleck green, it looks like the colour was some kind of olive/khaki green, same as exterior. Makes things simpler.

Hanno Spoelstra · #19 08-01-05, 17:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
A difficult thing will be determinating if the 60+ year old weathered paint once was Khaki Green G3 or Olive Drab SCC15!

Here's a nice example: two paint chips taken off my Canadian 20-cwt GS Trailer. Now, the one on the left is the second and top coat, presumably US Olive Drab applied by the Norwegian Army. To the right is the first coat of paint (which was applied directly on the wood) - Khaki Green G3 or Olive Drab SCC15?!?

:,
Hanno

cletrac (RIP) · #20 07-02-05, 17:58

Further to this factory colour question I was looking through my parts list manuals and came up with some interesting tidbits. For the C8s they made the side curtains in matte green (should we say khaki?) and light stone for the 40 to 42 order years. For the C8As the curtains for serials before 484---00001 were matte green, light stone or brown (42 and 43 order years). After that serial they were matte green, light stone, brown, or olive drab (44 order year). This seems to indicate that when they came up with a new colour it was in addition to the older colours. If they were making these colour curtains for the 44 order year they must have been painting some vehicles to suit.

Tony Smith · #21 08-02-05, 10:55

I've seen a few WW2 period pics where different parts of the vehicle is painted in different colours.
Look at this Ford being assembled below. The Frame and front bumper are painted a different colour to the Cab and wheels, and the frame may or may not be the same colour as the interior as the Cab, which is in turn a different colour to the underside of the engine cowling. What colour would you describe this truck as, yellow or green?

Source: Ford Canada Factory....

Tony Smith · #22 08-02-05, 11:01

The Ford F60B Bofors truck below was pictured shortly after being assembled by Pearson's of Liverpool. Is it a trick of the light or do the wheel rims appear to be a darker shade (of green?) to the front hubs and Cab?

cletrac (RIP) · #23 08-02-05, 16:50

Tony,
That assembly line picture looks like the cab is light stone and the bumper khaki. The cab is about the same shade as the worker's skin tone and the frame has about as much colour as his coveralls. The other picture is probably just lighting variations.

cletrac (RIP) · #24 19-10-06, 02:43

I have a fresh question on colours and figured this old thread would be a good place to post it.
I'm going to restore my C8 this winter and am considering the colour possibilities. On a 1940 Cab 11 the factory colours were either light stone or khaki G3. On the G3 the disruptive MTP20 patterns were in a bronze green or a sort of slate grey but what were the options on a light stone truck in North Africa? All the pictures I've seen have the pattern in a kind of dark charcoal but that seems to be too much contrast and would lessen the camouflage effect. Were any other colours used?
The next possibilities occur when these trucks made their way into Europe. Here we get the dog turd brown with a darker brown MTP20 or MTP46 pattern. Any restored examples with this scheme seem to have the undercarriage and cab interior painted brown too. I can't see this happening since they just closed the doors and painted what they could get easily. This would make for a light stone or khaki interior, frame and suspension, and engine compartment with the rest of the truck two tone brown.
The next change went to OD but Gregg states that by 1944 the C8 was obsolete and not in use so that's ruled out.
I'd appreciate any comments and anything I've missed. I'm kind of partial to the light stone or brown just because most of the time green isn't camouflage in Saskatchewan!

cletrac (RIP) · #25 19-10-06, 21:37

I found this thread on the old forum and it answers my question about interior colours after a repaint, but I was already pretty sure that was the case.

"Light stone agreed as the colour pattern for MT vehicles for the Middle East.

Camouflage Designs - IMT (SK) 1263 (Sheets 1-6), Ministry of Supply Specification MC 205J, Tint Plates, Khaki Green No.3, Control Shades 219 & 235."

This was sent from Dep.Nat. Def.,Ottawa to Can.Mil.HQ

"Paint Spec. CS/1289 Grey dark, CS/1276 Light green No.5 special, CS/1275 Light Indian red special, CS/1274 Dark Tarmac No.4 special, CS/1273 Light Sand special, CS/1272 Middle Stone special, CS/1193 Light Stone, CS/955 Ammonium Nitrate."

Some vehicles if they were painted in Light Stone or Sand for the desert campaign and then were shipped to Sicily and/or Italy were painted as they were crossing! The outside of the vehicles were usually only done with the interior remaining the original colour."

Now, we know what light stone, green no5, tarmac no4, and dark grey are, but what about Indian red, light sand and middle stone? I've seen references to early vehicles being painted in a 3 colour MTP20 scheme and a few B+W pictures but what combo would have been used in N Africa?

Hanno Spoelstra · #26 19-10-06, 23:31

Quote:

Originally posted by cletrac
Now, we know what light stone, green no5, tarmac no4, and dark grey are, but what about Indian red, light sand and middle stone? I've seen references to early vehicles being painted in a 3 colour MTP20 scheme and a few B+W pictures but what combo would have been used in N Africa?

See publications by Mike Starmer.

H.

cletrac (RIP) · #27 20-10-06, 03:44

Hanno, the link to the desert stuff doesn't work, but I seem to be answering my own questions. I found this quote in a search for desert camouflage as well as the colour chart. The light stone is quite a bit different from Dirk's colour chips that he posted on the forum though so I wonder about the others.:

1940 - 1941 - By mid to late 1940 many newly arrived vehicles and tanks appear to be painted a plain overall colour, BS. 52 Pale Cream is cited for the 6 RTR new A9 cruisers, whilst the more normal colours seem to have been Light Stone No.61 or Portland Stone No.64. However in November 1940 a new scheme was specified in G.O 297. This scheme comprised the tricoloured disruptive designs now known as ‘Caunter Scheme’. Very many AFVs and softskins carried this scheme of Portland Stone No.64 basic with Silver Grey No. 28 and Slate No.34 or Khaki Green No. 3 in angular disruptive stripes. Period G.Os specify Light Stone No.61 or Portland Stone No.64 at various times and a local variation substituted a mixed light blue-grey for Silver Grey No. 28. A scheme for use in the Sudan specified Light Stone No.61 with Light Purple Brown No.49 in patches or stripes.
February 1941 - G.O 63 calls for a single basic colour of Light Stone 61 with up to two disruptive colours applied over. These colours are specified as Slate 34 and Silver Grey 28 still in the angular disruptive stripes as before and cancelled GO 370 of 1939. This remained the predominant
scheme during 1941.

Mark Mackenzie · #28 23-10-06, 11:15

In Nth Africa the colours given in orders were:

1936 - 1938: Light Sand with Dark Sand disruptive pattern.

1938 - Nov 1940: Middle Stone with Dark Sand disruptive pattern.

Nov 1940 - Dec 1941: "Caunter" tri-colour stripped pattern of Light Stone, Silver Grey and Slate.

Dec 1941 - Oct 1942: Light Stone only without a pattern (an exception being black paint used with canvas for disguising tanks as trucks the so called 'Sunshields').

Oct 1942 onwards: Desert pink with Dark Green disruptive pattern.

Outside of Nth Africa, alternative colours were in use, eg Sudan with Light Stone and Light Purple Brown and Palestine with Light Stone and Dark Green.