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  #1  
Old 24-10-17, 05:05
Peter Duggan Peter Duggan is offline
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Default AKA Cambridge carrier

Guys,

Had the opportunity to participate in a very well managed MV recovery. The vehicle was a cut down FV402 Armoured Observation Post. The new owner is Jonathan Bradshaw. From what I can gather this was an unsuccessful trials vehicle based on the Cambridge carrier.
Mike and his FV432 made short work by dragging out the carrier and with a good steel sling and sheaves the carrier was pulled onto the trailer.
To cap off a great day, Mike brought out his Canadian built six pounder AT and some black powder rounds were fired off to commemorate the event.

Peter

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  #2  
Old 24-10-17, 06:10
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Where was this recovered from?
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  #3  
Old 24-10-17, 07:00
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Always nice to see the teamwork within this forum.

Congrats to Jon.
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  #4  
Old 24-10-17, 14:29
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In my humbe view that vehicle has some historic significance and I can only hope that something good gets done by Jon with it, I realise there may be a slight interval between acquisition and start of work.

Here is the thread over on HMVF which is worth reading

http://hmvf.co.uk/topic/12460-where-...comment-427578
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  #5  
Old 24-10-17, 16:50
Peter Duggan Peter Duggan is offline
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Default Location

Charlie,

Should have included that in my thread. The FV402 came from Mike Calnan’s ‘Sword and Ploughshares’ museum near Kar, ON.

Rob,

You are quite right, the camadarie and Team work within our MV community is it’s strength.

Peter
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  #6  
Old 26-10-17, 04:06
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Default The recovery went well.

As Peter said the recovery was a success. We brought every thing we thought could possibly be needed. A lot of the items we brought were used. The carrier will be put back to "original" or as close as I can make it to a copy of the one at Bovington.
Is there a person on here who is the contact commonly used at the Bovington collection? If not then is there someone who can point me to the collection's contact? I expect there are people who live near Bovington and have the ability to visit at will. Has anyone seen or do they have pictures of it that are not already posted?
Detailed interior layout pictures are going to be very important to me as well as detailed pictures of the roof and the layout of the side bins.
If this is truly one of only two in the world then I will do my best to bring it back to life.

Jonathan
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  #7  
Old 26-10-17, 12:32
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Jon,
You may well find that the manuals and parts list are relatively available. Generally these British '50s vehicles are not very glamorous so people don't aspire to them, and often have never even heard of them, so there is little general demand. One place to try would be Bovington library archive though they can be expensive. UK ebay is always worth keeping an eye on, recently some FV421 books were on there - a much more obscure vehicle than the Cambridge. I would be happy to forward books from the UK to you if posting is a problem to a vendor here.

Incidentaly I assume you have seen just how close the family relationship is between FV400, FV420 and FV430 series. Each was developed directly from the one before.

Do you have the Hull number (possibly on a little plate about 3x2cm welded on the back somewhere like FV430s) or its army Reg number?

Regards, David
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  #8  
Old 05-11-17, 19:12
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Default Carrier info

David- I have not looked at the hull for a number but that will happen soon.

I have sent an email to Bovington to see who answers and how forthcoming they are going to be with info and pictures.

I have attached the pic that I could find of the Bovington Barn and you can just see it in the back (top right corner). Last in line behind the Oxford.

The one at Bovington I assume is the later variant with a roof, the earlier? seems to have a flat roof of a three sided type as seen in pic #2.

According to the attached doc the only two surviving ones are the one at Bovington and mine (formerly from the swords and plowshares collection)

Does anyone have info on any other examples of this carrier? Seems some went to the ranges never to be seen again.
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bovington barn.jpg   Cambridge.jpg  
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File Type: pdf Surviving_Oxford_and_Cambridge_Carriers.pdf (155.0 KB, 16 views)
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  #9  
Old 06-11-17, 06:13
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Default More questions than answers right now....

David- Here is what I think you are looking for- hull #FV63629? or #A4496?
I also wonder about the other stamped number #6?
I attached the pic so you might be able to see what you are looking for....

It looks like the one at Bovington was used as a hard target and then possibly saved for display. The picture of the the one on the range labelled as a target and the one at Bovington have the same number UXM65.

Also wondering if anyone recognizes this 5 speed final drive with forward and reverse lever?
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20171024_161438.jpg   20171024_163551.jpg   20171024_163540.jpg  
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  #10  
Old 07-11-17, 01:42
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Nigel Watson covers the Cambridge in ‘Universal Carriers Volume II’.
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  #11  
Old 07-11-17, 10:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Bradshaw View Post
David- Here is what I think you are looking for- hull #FV63629? or #A4496?
I also wonder about the other stamped number #6?
I attached the pic so you might be able to see what you are looking for....

?
Jon
The photo with numbers in it is a view of the radiator and numbers relate to that.
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  #12  
Old 07-11-17, 23:36
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Default Radiator

Richard- Is there any info you can gain from this radiator ie: a standard one used on multiple variations or is it specific to this one?

Michael- Thanks I will try to see what it says about them -Amazon is out of copies of that volume right they have Vol 1 and 3 but not Vol 2. So I can't buy it.

I am told it has a B80 engine and the Saracen transmission so those should be fairly commonplace. Both the engine and transmission are seized so not the easiest to get running yet.

The final drive seems in good shape and free enough that it steers and brakes when under tow. The 5 speed shift lever and the reverse lever in the final drive are both stuck though.

The pics I took that day are not showing any data stamped on the hull. I will need to crawl around on it next summer when I have time.

Last edited by Jon Bradshaw; 08-11-17 at 00:05.
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  #13  
Old 08-11-17, 01:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Bradshaw View Post
Richard- Is there any info you can gain from this radiator ie: a standard one used on multiple variations or is it specific to this one?

I am told it has a B80 engine and the Saracen transmission so those should be fairly commonplace. Both the engine and transmission are seized so not the easiest to get running yet.
Hi Jon,
There is a brief description in this booklet about the FV432 and its predecessors:
http://www.fv432apc.com/manuals/fv43...432+series.pdf

I saw in an earlier post that this is a FV402 which according to the booklet is an Armoured Observation Post Team Carrier and fitted with a TN20 Hobbs transmission, whereas the FV401 is shown as having a Wilson pre-select type (which is of the type in a Saracen). Going by the photo of the gear selector, it does not look like a Wilson box.
The photo of the plate you posted, upper plate shows the radiator was made at Morris Motors' Osberton radiator works. The plate under it with the FV number will be the part number of the radiator, under that are inspectors stamps. More than likely specially built I would think.
Sorry, I have no other info on the Cambridge. Few were built as far as I know and mostly prototypes for trials I think.
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  #14  
Old 09-11-17, 04:32
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Default Transmission identity

I am not the expert on these British machines and am going on what I was told at time of sale. Here is a picture of the transmission, it has sat looking like this since about 1983 so the transmission is almost certainly a write off. Anyone who can identify it with certainty would be a help. Is it from a Saracen, another British vehicle or something else entirely?
I suppose also confirming that it is a B80 engine would be good.
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  #15  
Old 09-11-17, 10:51
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Hi Jon
That does indeed look like an adapted pre-select box as used in a Saracen. The engine is a B80
Regards
Richard
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  #16  
Old 09-11-17, 15:00
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Now I'm jealous
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  #17  
Old 12-11-17, 00:54
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Default the third foot pedal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Farrant View Post
Hi Jon
That does indeed look like an adapted pre-select box as used in a Saracen. The engine is a B80
Regards
Richard
Does the image Jon posted of the driver hand and foot controls show a third foot pedal to the left . . . a gear change pedal (GCP)?

Nigel Watson wrote in:
'Universal Carriers Volume II' at page 235:

"Power is supplied by a B80 Mk.2F engine and is transmitted through the transmission unit propeller shaft, Cletrac steering unit and coupling shafts to the final drive assemblies.

Either of two types of transmission unit may be fitted, namely the Wilson pre-selective gearbox and the Hobbs transmission unit. Both units simplify gear changing and eliminate the need for a clutch; therefore no clutch pedal is fitted.

Vehicles fitted with a Wilson gearbox are however fitted with a gear change pedal. Therefore vehicles fitted with a Hobbs transmission unit can be readily identified by the absence of the gear change pedal, there being only two foot control pedals fitted, the accelerator and the brake.
"
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Old 12-11-17, 01:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael R. View Post
Does the image Jon posted of the driver hand and foot controls show a third foot pedal to the left . . . a gear change pedal (GCP)?

Nigel Watson wrote in:
'Universal Carriers Volume II' at page 235:

"Power is supplied by a B80 Mk.2F engine and is transmitted through the transmission unit propeller shaft, Cletrac steering unit and coupling shafts to the final drive assemblies.

Either of two types of transmission unit may be fitted, namely the Wilson pre-selective gearbox and the Hobbs transmission unit. Both units simplify gear changing and eliminate the need for a clutch; therefore no clutch pedal is fitted.

Vehicles fitted with a Wilson gearbox are however fitted with a gear change pedal. Therefore vehicles fitted with a Hobbs transmission unit can be readily identified by the absence of the gear change pedal, there being only two foot control pedals fitted, the accelerator and the brake.
"
The gearbox in Jon's photos is quite clearly a Wilson pre-selector, similar to a Saracen, only visible difference is the end plate and output drive flange ( A Saracen box is bolted up to the transfer box and no flange needed). This will mean swapping over some parts I guess.

The gear selector is the same layout to the Saracen (etc). The Cletrac steering is similar to the Oxford Carrier, with two sets of tillers.
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Last edited by Richard Farrant; 12-11-17 at 01:54.
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  #19  
Old 12-11-17, 07:21
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Default Richard

To answer your question- Does the image Jon posted of the driver hand and foot controls show a third foot pedal to the left . . . a gear change pedal (GCP)?
--Yes there is a third pedal down at the left beside the final drive and it is attached into the side of the center gearbox. I do not know what it does, it may have been a carry over from other design and do nothing or it may be a gear change lever. I will need to take a closer look when the weather is warm again.
You also mention cletrac steering with dual tillers, do you have some insight into what final drive assembly this is? A "normal" final drive (like a T16) doesn't have a transmission style shifter built into it with 5 gears and a reverse lever.....
This makes me wonder if the transmission is almost superfluous and the final drive can act as the transmission? Or it is geared in such a way as to allow massively low and high gearing (might be why the 5th gear is locked out with a bolt) 5th and 5th would be really fast. 1st and 1st would climb almost any hill with a load under tow. The reverse lever would act like a ferret and give you the same 5+5 in reverse....
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Old 12-11-17, 12:36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Bradshaw View Post
--Yes there is a third pedal down at the left beside the final drive and it is attached into the side of the center gearbox. I do not know what it does, it may have been a carry over from other design and do nothing or it may be a gear change lever. I will need to take a closer look when the weather is warm again.
You also mention cletrac steering with dual tillers, do you have some insight into what final drive assembly this is? A "normal" final drive (like a T16) doesn't have a transmission style shifter built into it with 5 gears and a reverse lever.....
This makes me wonder if the transmission is almost superfluous and the final drive can act as the transmission? Or it is geared in such a way as to allow massively low and high gearing (might be why the 5th gear is locked out with a bolt) 5th and 5th would be really fast. 1st and 1st would climb almost any hill with a load under tow. The reverse lever would act like a ferret and give you the same 5+5 in reverse....
Hi Jon,
The left pedal will be connected to the pre-selector gearbox by rods and operate a lever on the top side of the box, this works the busbar in order to engage a pre-selected gear. No different to a Ferret which you may be familiar with. The driver operated gear selector gate appears to only be mounted on the front steering/ forward and reverse casing and I can see the outside lever, this will in turn, by rods, operate the small lever on the side of the pre-select gearbox.

regards, Richard
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  #21  
Old 12-11-17, 14:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Bradshaw View Post
I am not the expert on these British machines and am going on what I was told at time of sale. Here is a picture of the transmission, it has sat looking like this since about 1983 so the transmission is almost certainly a write off. Anyone who can identify it with certainty would be a help. Is it from a Saracen, another British vehicle or something else entirely?
I suppose also confirming that it is a B80 engine would be good.
Hope springs eternal, and today is of course Sunday.

The derelict condition may not be final. It is possible that much more than meets the eye is salvageable.
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  #22  
Old 12-11-17, 14:50
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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This FV402 has a steering system that functions exactly the same as that in a T16. There is a Cletrac controlled differential with contracting band brakes running in oil in the central unit to provide the main steering function which when an outer steering lever is applied. this reduces the speed of one track and at the same time speeds up the other track by the same amount. A full application of one of these brakes will make one track go at about half the speed of the other with less difference / bigger radius of turn if you partially apply the brake.

Just inside the lower hull sides and mounted onto the final drive units are drum brakes with rod linkages to the stopping brake pedal and to the two central steering levers. Thus these brakes can be used either as the service brake (for slowing down / stopping) as a parking brake by pulling and latching the two centre steering levers, or for pivot turns in very confined situations by pulling just one centre steering lever.

Also inside the steering gearbox is the forward / reverse gearbox. This can only be changed with the vehicle stationary and the Wilson box in neutral. There is a neutral position in the F/R box but it is very unwise to try to engage F or R from N with the engine running - even with the Wilson box in neutral. There is too much drag in the Wildon box so the prop shaft etc will turn at about engine speed and the resultant grinding of gears in the F/R box is very destructive. Instead, stop, engage N in the Wilson box (or GC pedal to the floor which is what N position is) and smartly but not violently go straight from F to R or the other way. Do not pause in N or the propshaft will spin up.

The Wilson box contains 5 possible gears that can be engaged at any speed or load by pre selecting what you want next and then fully pressing and releasing the GC pedal. Do not use this as a clutch, but release it smartly in one movement. There is a fluid flywheel between the engine and Wilson box to cushion the drive and allow stopping in gear and progressive engement of the drive when starting off. When changing up or down match the engine revs to the next gear as you would with a manual box.

Unlike a T16 you are not supposed to use the Cletrac (outer steering levers) both together to stop the vehicle and there may well be an interlock to prevent you. This is a hangover from WW2 British tank designs as the Merrit Brown box in Cromwells etc would be damaged if you engaged both steering brakes.

This four lever system continued through the FV420 series into the pre production FV432s but then someone realised it was silly and production FV430 series got an ordinary Cletrac system with a more robust Cletrac controlled differential and no separate stopping brakes. This lasted untill modern civilian legislation required the FV430 series to be upgraded with a steering box that offered two separate braking systems.

David
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Old 12-11-17, 21:47
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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I imagine your research quiry at The Tank Museum, Bovington, and to some extent other information sources as necessary, such as IWM, CWM and LAC may indicated your carrier is one of the Pilot models.

Are there a total of three (3) FV402 pilot models, or more? The Tank Museum, Bovington appears to hold FVPE 3818.

Two other known AOP No.4 FV402 series are:
FVPE 3816, Pilot model 1, UK Registration JXW 32
FVPE 3903, Pilot model 2, UK Registration KYW 36




IWM: Imperial War Museum, London
CWM: Canadian War Museum, Ottawa
LAC: Library and Archives Canada, Ottawa
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Old 19-11-17, 20:55
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Default A quick reply from Bovington

The researcher said that they have Mark 1- FV402 Armoured Observation Post No. 4 Mark 1 and the registration number for it is 60 BA 09. I am still waiting on more info from them but it raised a question in my mind about numbers. It is the one in the pics FVPE 3818.
Since the earlier pictures I had seen of this vehicle (attached) had the UXM 65 number on it and that was the same as the number on a target hull pic I also have seen (but can't find right now). I wonder if it was taken off the range and given a new number/ brought onto charge in the military just for the museum?

Quote from- Michael R- Two other known AOP No.4 FV402 series are:
FVPE 3816, Pilot model 1, UK Registration JXW 32
FVPE 3903, Pilot model 2, UK Registration KYW 36
Are you saying there are two other carriers out there in museum/private collections?

The pic is from the old thread on this site about this carrier from 2005. A few more pics as good as these and I would have enough to start getting a fabrication plan together. I still have no idea what the inside would look like. Other than the drivers seat, it was completely stripped out.

Interesting the amount of dust collected on it over the years. I assume the new vehicle preservation building is much more "dust free" then the old one.
Picture is courtesy of Dennis Trowbridge, see http://community.webshots.com/user/jtrowbridge5
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thumbnail_FV401 Cambridge Carrier 35013630311_1c007860d3_b.jpg   front left top shot.jpg   back left side shot.jpg  
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Old 20-11-17, 01:57
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Pilot vehicles would normally have had civilian style registration numbers like UXM65. They also usually had a large P1, P2 etc in white painted on in obvious places for easy recognition. These were used for basic development of the design.
Pre production vehicles usually had army registrations like 60BA09 and a large W1, W2 etc. These were built for troop trials but often had major modifications as the trials went along.
Series production vehicles would have army numbers.
FVRDE / FVPE numbers were allocated to all individual vehicles being developed or tested by those organisations. They were painted on any obvious flatish surface, often on the front and were often refered to as 'wing numbers' as they would be painted on a front wing (fender) of a wheeled vehicle.

David
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Old 02-12-17, 02:21
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Default Reply from the museum...

The researcher has replied to me that she has found quite a bunch of info on the carrier FV 401/ armoured OP FV 402 and wants to know what I would like her to send me....
The list of stuff is long but it is excerpts from different books and some manuals she found. Without seeing what she has I am stuck, I guess I will just order it all and sort out whats good when it arrives.

The list of the items she found are-

Outline and Transport Diagrams, Plate Thickness, Suspension and Engine and Transmission (6 pages)

Carrier, Armoured, O.P., No. 4, FV 402 (photograph and basic description)(1 page)

Provisional User Handbook (for troop trials) for Carrier, Universal No.4 (FV401) and Carrier, A.O.P, No. 4 (FV402), WO Code 17767
(basic description of contents: General Description, User Servicing and Adjustments, Fault Finding Charts, Appendix and List of Illustrations: 34 figures) (88 pages)

Ministry of Supply, Fighting Vehicles Proving Establishment, Report No. F.T.2007, Cambridge Carrier Development Trials (20 pages of text, 2 pages of graphs, 6 pages of photographs)

Ministry of Supply, Fighting Vehicles Proving Establishment, Report No. F.T.1908, Development Trials: F.V.402 Prototype No. 1. (First 1000 Miles), 10th Nov 1950 (20 pages of text, 3 pages of graphs, 2 pages of photographs

Universal Carriers, Volume 2’ by Nigel Watson (Choir Press, 2006)
(This chapter covers the FV402 and FV401. There is a brief description, stowage sketches, interiors, wading device information, dimensions. Photos throughout. (19 pages- pp.234-252)


I have been looking for the book Universal Carriers, Volume 2’ by Nigel Watson. Amazon and Ebay and a bunch of other sites are all out of stock. Does anyone have this book and are you willing to part with it? If not then I will buy the pages particular to this carrier from the museum.....
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Old 02-12-17, 08:17
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I looked on Abe books and only Volumes one and three came up. Sounds like it is worth buying at whatever price you can find it, maybe.
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Old 02-12-17, 11:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Bradshaw View Post
Universal Carriers, Volume 2’ by Nigel Watson (Choir Press, 2006)
(This chapter covers the FV402 and FV401. There is a brief description, stowage sketches, interiors, wading device information, dimensions. Photos throughout. (19 pages- pp.234-252)

I have been looking for the book Universal Carriers, Volume 2’ by Nigel Watson. Amazon and Ebay and a bunch of other sites are all out of stock. Does anyone have this book and are you willing to part with it? If not then I will buy the pages particular to this carrier from the museum.....
Jon,

It seems the museum has pretty comprehensive source material. If I were you I would send an email to Nigel Watson and ask him if he included more information in his book, than covered by the source material listed above.

HTH,
Hanno
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Old 04-12-17, 04:48
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Jon Bradshaw Jon Bradshaw is offline
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Default Contacting Nigel

Robin, I am not surprised you couldn't find the book either. I would buy it if someone had a copy.

Hanno, I will contact Nigel and see if he still has any info that he can send me. He may even have a copy of the book to send me.
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Old 31-12-17, 01:08
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Jon Bradshaw Jon Bradshaw is offline
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Default Package arrived from the museum today.

So the package arrived and as promised it has about 150 pages of assorted copies from a few obscure manuals and the engineer reports for the vehicle trials.
I am slowly reading through them and there are also some useful scaled drawings. Not blueprints but still useful to show the angle and thickness of various parts of the outer steel.
The layout of the inside is the real picture I was hoping for, haven't found it yet...
If I find any really god pics or have questions I will post them for the rest of you to help me with.
Still no response from Nigel about his book.

Last edited by Jon Bradshaw; 31-12-17 at 07:19.
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