Armoured Squadron in Armoured Regiments

[Wolfkin]

Hello all!

I have been reading a great deal lately on the Armoured Squadrons of the various Canadian Armoured Regiments. Right now I am a little confused on one certain thing in particular. I realize that at some point in 1944 the Armoured Squadrons changed from a 3 Tank X 5 Troop format to a 4 Tank X 4 Troop format.

However, I am not exactly certain at when this happened nor am I completely aware on how the Sherman Firefly would fit into this. I am guessing that in the 3 Tank X 5 Troop format there would be 5 Sherman Fireflies per Armoured Squadron and in the 4 Tank X 4 Troop format there would be 4 Sherman Fireflies per Armoured Squadron.

But I have realized in my reading that the above mentioned formats were not always the case. Would anyone happen to have any information that they would be able to provide that would help clear up the muddy waters that seem to flow in this subject? Thank you very much in advance!

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

[Wolfkin]

Hello!

I have a bit of an update. Apparently, it might have been in July 1944 or August 1944 that the Armoured Squadrons changed from a 3 Tank X 5 Troop format to a 4 Tank X 4 Troop format. I know that the Armoured Squadrons in the 4th Armoured Division were organized in a 4 Tank X 4 Troop format for the offensives in August 1944 but I do not know about the Armoured Squadrons in the 2nd Armoured Brigade. More reading on this for me!

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

[RichTO90]

Originally posted by Wolfkin
Apparently, it might have been in July 1944 or August 1944 that the Armoured Squadrons changed from a 3 Tank X 5 Troop format to a 4 Tank X 4 Troop format. I know that the Armoured Squadrons in the 4th Armoured Division were organized in a 4 Tank X 4 Troop format for the offensives in August 1944 but I do not know about the Armoured Squadrons in the 2nd Armoured Brigade.

Hi Wolfie! (sorry, couldn't resist )

At least 10 CAR was organized as:

10th Armoured Regiment (Fort Gary Horse)
RHQ and HQ Squadron – three Stuart tanks, one ARV, two scout cars, and one Valentine bridgelayer (attached from 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade)
A Squadron – SHQ and five troops each of two Sherman and one Sherman Vc
B & C Squadrons – each SHQ and five troops of three Sherman-DD each, plus two ‘spare’
There were also two Sherman Vc crewed by 10th CAR personnel (First Reinforcements) in LCT (CB) that were on charge to 259th Corps Delivery Squadron. They joined B Squadron after the assault.

It appears this was the organization used by all the DD-equipped armoured regiments, albeit not all had the spare Fireflies.

Hope that helps.

Rich

[Wolfkin]

Hello Rich!

Thank you very much for your response! Do you know if the Armoured Regiments of the 2nd Armoured Brigade (Fort Garry Horse, Sherbrooke Fusiliers, 1st Hussars) stayed with this organization (3 Tank X 5 Troop) until the end of the war? I still can not find any information on their organization after June of 1944. Thanks again!

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

[Bill Alexander]

Hello Jon, In the current issue of the journal CANADIAN MILITARY HISTORY, (Vol 13, No 3), there is a recount of an operational report. This report is an extract of the Second Canadian Armoured Brigade on events and lessons learned 6-11 June 1944. Point 25 in the report states:
As a result of experience gained in this campaign, it has been decided to organize squadrons on a four tank troop basis. Each troop will have three 75mm and one 17 pdr. ...
The point continues to discuss the position of the troop leader within the four vehicles.
Given the dates referred in the report, it is obvious that the re-organization was after June 11. No firm date was given.

[Wolfkin]

Hello Bill!

Thank you very much for this information! This really helps me out because now at least I have some dates to go by in trying to figure out the organization of the Squadrons in the 2nd Armoured Brigade! Thanks again!

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

[Tony Viste]

From the 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade War Diary:

June 14
"Beginning at 0900 hours, the brigade commander, Brig R A WYMAN, today conducted a conference of regimental and staff officers on lessons learned in operations to date. The three regimental commanders in turn outlined the story of the first week's fighting in NORMANDY, insofar as their respective units were concerned; squadron and troop commanders were called on, as became appropriate during the course of the CO's narratives, to describe actions in which they had been concerned. The pooling of information served not only to provide material for a synthesis of lessons learned, but to put all units of the brigade in the picture as to what each had accomplished or undergone. The conference was adjourned by the brigade commander at 1230 hours, to be resumed tomorrow morning."

June 15
"The conference on lessons learned during the first week of operations was continued this morning , with the locale, as yesterday, the lawn of the chief residence in the village. All troop leaders who contributed this morning to the pool of ideas were definite in their preference for a four-tank troop as against the three-tank troop provided by war establishment. All regimental officers were equally definite, speaking in the light of their experience to date, in preferring to share out the available Sherman VC's with 17pdr guns to the smallest sub-unit, on the basis of one per troop, rather than to concentrate them in 17pdr troops or 17pdr squadrons. Two troop commanders outlined a tactic which they had found workable ,- the use of a Sherman VC as a troop commander's vehicle, moving in rear of the three Sherman III's in a four-tank troop, and giving support to the other three tanks of the troop with the superior range, hitting power and armour-piercing performance of the 17pdr gun. The results of the two sessions, yesterday's and today's were summarized in conclusion by Col J F BINGHAM, Bde 2 i/c, and will be incorporated in a formal report to higher authority."


From the Fort Garry Horse War Diary:

June 15
"The meeting at 2 Canadian Armoured Brigade continued today. The decision was made all Squadrons would adopt the four tank troop organization as opposed to the three tank troop which has always been used in this Regiment. The Sherbrook Fusiliers have used the four tank troop with great satisfaction, and their experiences in the tactical handling of it as related to us will be invaluable. The best organization within this troop is thought to be 3 Sherman IIIs up (75mm) with the 1 Sherman V (17)pr in reserve carrying the Tp Ldr.
The meeting ended with Col Bingham summorizing the two morning lessons. Meeting of all Sqn ldrs and 2i/cs this afternoon to discuss new organization."

June 16
"All Squadrons reorganized on the four Tk Troop basis today. Some tactics were practised today, but when our movement drew enemy mortar fire on forward infantry positions, the training was discontinued."


From the Sherbrooke Fusilier War Diary:

June 21
"The Unit is now operating on a 49 tank basis. This gives each squadron 3 troops of 4 tanks with 3 tanks in Sqn HQ and the regular 4 tanks in RHQ. Most of the officers consider this a better organization as it is smaller and much easier for the Sqn commander to handle during battle."


From the First Hussars War Diary:

June 15
"The CO (LT-COL R.J.COLWELL) called the officers in for a discussion on troop tactics and exchange of ideas of handling the situation, which troop leaders had experienced."

July 13
"The Regt is nearly up to full strength in tanks and is being organized as follows: "RHQ" with the same four tanks and each fighting Sqn with four troops of four tanks each and "HQ" with three tanks, making a total of nineteen tanks for each Sqn."

[Wolfkin]

Hello Tony!

Thank you very much for this information! Wow, this really helps me out a great deal and it has information for each of the regiments of the 2nd Armoured Brigade too! Thank you very much again and also thank you for taking the time to type all that information out!

Cheers,

Jon Fitzgerald
Calgary,AB,Canada

[RichTO90]

Yes Tony, kudos to you, that's very good information.