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  #1  
Old 09-12-04, 18:17
James Gosling James Gosling is offline
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Default GM Foxes in N.West Europe

Whilst surfing the Web ,I came across 'Report NO 141,The Situation of Canadian Military Forces Overseas'. On one of its pages there is a request by 21st army for all surplus foxes in the UK to be retained for internal security in North West Europe. It then goes on to confirm that the canadian army went on to hold 200 for this purpose.
Has anyone any information about this ,were they ever used and if so which units received them ?
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  #2  
Old 09-12-04, 21:08
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Default

Fox in service with Canadian Provost Corps.
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foxprovost_asm.jpg   foxprovost_bsm.jpg  
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  #3  
Old 10-12-04, 03:26
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Default Where? When?

Have you any more details? Which units? Pictures??
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  #4  
Old 10-12-04, 10:56
James Gosling James Gosling is offline
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Default Markings

From the markings in the pictures this Fox belongs to the 4th Provost Company of the 3rd Infantry division.Does anyone know what the darker patch insind of the 3rd Div sign was for?
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  #5  
Old 10-12-04, 19:57
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Mark W. Tonner Mark W. Tonner is offline
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Post Re: Fox photos

Quote:
Originally posted by Al Nickolson
Canadian Fox
James/Al/Bruce;

I believe that these two pictures are the following: PA-145014 and PA-145015, which are located: here and here, that were taken in Aurich, Germany (26-27 Aug 1945), showing a Fox of the 2nd 4th Provost Company, C. Pro. C., of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division, CAOF. The vehicle looks to 'clean' and 'spruced-up' to be a 'war time' photo.

Cheers
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  #6  
Old 10-12-04, 22:35
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Re: Re: Fox photos

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
The vehicle looks to 'clean' and 'spruced-up' to be a 'war time' photo.
Indeed, by August 1945, the war in NW Europe was over

H.
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  #7  
Old 10-12-04, 22:57
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Talking Re: Re: Re: Fox photos

Quote:
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Indeed, by August 1945, the war in NW Europe was over
Go back to sleep...........isn't it past your bedtime......
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  #8  
Old 10-12-04, 23:02
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Fox photos

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Go back to sleep...........isn't it past your bedtime......
11 pm, yes sir, I'm off to bed!
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  #9  
Old 11-12-04, 00:10
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Default Some observations.

Al, James, thanks for the information and pictures! I must confess this is the first I've heard of Provost using Fox.

re: the pictures:

1. No guns are mounted.
2. Wireless set (or at least aerials) is.
3. Strange white (?) bins on vehicle left side (top picture), not on right (lower picture).
4. This is the first Fox picture I've seen other than factory photos that show vehicles with straight fenders.

I assume the two pictures are of the same vehicle?

So proven Fox usage is:

Canadian armoured recce and armoured car regiments in England 1942/43, and Royal Canadian Corps of Signals attached to their HQ's

Royal Canadian Dragoons (1st Canadian Corps) and 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards (1st Canadian Infantry Division) in Italy, 1943/44

Polish Army, Italy 1944/45

Canadian Provost Corp (3rd Canadian Division CAOF at least), NW Europe, 1945

Postwar Italy
Postwar Portugal
Postwar Holland (in service in Indonesia)

Suspected use may include some examples reaching North Africa in 1943 and British or Indian use in SE Asia.

Confirmation or additions?
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  #10  
Old 11-12-04, 00:56
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Post Re: Cdn Fox

4th Princess Louise's Dragoon Guards - Fox - Montagano, Italy - 26 Oct 43 (PA-137996)

Cheers
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  #11  
Old 11-12-04, 08:48
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Default Another Fox Photo

Fox at Belchamp St. Paul, Clare, UK
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  #12  
Old 11-12-04, 12:14
James Gosling James Gosling is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Nickolson View Post
Fox at Belchamp St. Paul, Clare, UK
Hi Al, any idea when this photo was taken? Or whether the Fox still resides there?
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  #13  
Old 11-12-04, 15:17
Alex Blair (RIP) Alex Blair (RIP) is offline
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Default Re: Some observations.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Parker
So proven Fox usage is:

Canadian armoured recce and armoured car regiments in England 1942/43, and Royal Canadian Corps of Signals attached to their HQ's
Hi Bruce..
http://www.rcaca.org/AFV-Fox.htm

28th Armoured Regiment
(The British Columbia Regiment)

4th Canadian Armoured Division
Northwest Europe, 1945
http://www.rcaca.org/r-BCR.htm
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  #14  
Old 11-12-04, 23:09
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Default

'Bardia', B Sqn., 4 PLDG, Sicily, 1943
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  #15  
Old 11-12-04, 23:12
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Default My favorite restored Fox

Who owns this? I would really like to contact him.
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  #16  
Old 12-12-04, 04:56
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Default Fox at Belchamp St. Paul, Clare, UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Gosling View Post
Hi Al, any idea when this photo was taken? Or whether the Fox still resides there?
Hi James,

The photo was taken in Feb 2004. The yard belongs to M.H. Ebeling, Belchamp St. Paul, Clare,UK.

Al
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  #17  
Old 12-12-04, 15:19
James Gosling James Gosling is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Nickolson View Post
The photo was taken in Feb 2004. The yard belongs to M.H. Ebeling, Belchamp St. Paul, Clare,UK.
Thanks Al, I did not recognise it as Mikes, as all the cars and trees have gone now and the fox does not look so forlorn.

James.
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  #18  
Old 13-12-04, 00:54
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Default Re: My favorite restored Fox

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Parker
Who owns this? I would really like to contact him.
Ah yes, we first came across this one while working on the Fox Armoured Car thread on the old forum. Judging by its URL, these foxes are owned by members of the Italian IMVCC. Sending them an e-mail might work?

HTH,
Hanno
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  #19  
Old 04-01-05, 13:57
Neil Ashley Neil Ashley is offline
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Default Fox Armoured Cars in NW Europe

Regarding usage of these vehicles in the NW Europe Campaign, Peter Browns excellent article in Armoured Car Magazine published in 1996 is very informative.

Peter used various documents held in the UK Public Records Office including the "Half Yearly Reports on the Progress of the Royal Armoured Corps". These were compiled in June and December of each year and are based on returns from units covering the previous 6 months.

The only mention of Fox's in service is in the 21st Army Group Wheeled Armoured Holdings List as at June 1945. The details are as follows.

8 Corps 1 vehicle, 5th Cdn AD 7 vehicles, 2 Cdn Inf Div 5 vehicles, 3rd Cdn Inf Div 1 vehicle, and 1 Polish AD 5 vehicles. Total with units 19 vehicles, Base Depots 130, others 7, overall total 156.

If any one knows Peter this is an excellent article which deserves to be published again, perhaps as an attachment available on this Forum.
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  #20  
Old 04-01-05, 15:14
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Default Re: Fox Armoured Cars in NW Europe

Quote:
Originally posted by Neil Ashley
If any one knows Peter
I know Peter personally, and I will point out this thread to him.

Hanno
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  #21  
Old 04-01-05, 16:52
James Gosling James Gosling is offline
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Default

Thanks for the information Neil. Does it give any other info as to which units within the divisions the Foxes were with? Are these some of the Foxes assigned to the provost ?
On the same subject does anyone know when the CMP were issued their Foxes, Al's photos show them just post war in Germany.Were they in use before the wars end in other liberated countries?
James
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  #22  
Old 04-01-05, 18:19
Neil Ashley Neil Ashley is offline
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James

The article does not break down usage any further than I have already quoted. Quite if Peter can add any thing else himself I cannot comment.

It is also unfortunate also that these records do not cover LRC's which for accounting purposes, were classed as soft skin vehicles. The records are most likely still in the PRO's if someone has the time to do the research.

I did try to get Peter to agree to publishing the article in the MVT Magazine some years ago, but he was unwilling.
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  #23  
Old 28-03-05, 02:20
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Default Re: Fox Armoured Cars in NW Europe

Quote:
Originally posted by Neil Ashley
The only mention of Fox's in service is in the 21st Army Group Wheeled Armoured Holdings List as at June 1945. The details are as follows.

8 Corps 1 vehicle, 5th Cdn AD 7 vehicles, 2 Cdn Inf Div 5 vehicles, 3rd Cdn Inf Div 1 vehicle, and 1 Polish AD 5 vehicles. Total with units 19 vehicles, Base Depots 130, others 7, overall total 156.
Hi,

Hmm,... the newest Polish monograph of the Polish 1st Armoured Division mentions nothing about the GM Foxes. In the field of armoured cars used in ETO by the Polish 1st Armoured it informs only about the Daimler Dingo Mk. I, Humber Scout Car Mk. I, Humber Mk. IIIA, Humber Mk. IV, Daimler Mk. I, Staghound T17E1 and Morris Mk. I.

Best

C.



PS. Below are the covers of this monograph Vol. I and Vol. II.

http://img43.exs.cx/img43/7855/1964zm.gif
http://img43.exs.cx/img43/5620/2130ij.gif

Last edited by Crewman; 28-03-05 at 02:37.
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  #24  
Old 28-03-05, 03:02
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Default Italy?

Crewman...what can you tell us about Fox armoured cars used by Polish forces in Italy?
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  #25  
Old 28-03-05, 09:38
James Gosling James Gosling is offline
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Hi Crewman
Thanks for the posting. In Peter Brown's article, under the Holdings list for June 44 and December 44 the 1st Polish Armoured Division are listed as having only Staghounds,Daimler Scouts and Humber Scouts. Then in the June 45 list they have the same vehicles plus 5 Fox 37mm. As the Fox only had the 2 MG's this could be a miss-print or maybe early Hum-foxes. The Humber 37mm is on the same list but no vehicles listed fo the 1st Polish.
In the books you mention does it give any vehicle numbers which might tally with the 21st Army Group figures?
James
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  #26  
Old 28-03-05, 14:12
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Bruce & James,

When it comes to Italy the Polish sources mention about the GM Fox cars in the context of their rarity in the Polish Armed Forces. No doubt 31 Fox cars served between 1943 and 1944 in the 15. Pułk Ułanów Poznańskich (15th Poznan Ulan Regiment, where "Poznan" is the name of Polish city, and "Ulan" is pre-WWII Polish cavalrymen). It was armoured cavalry reconnaissance regiment belonged to the 5. Kresowa Dywizja Piechoty (5th Infantry Division "Kresowa").

15th Regiment veteran, Lt. Romuald Kobecki, mentions that they were incorrectly called by the Polish troops "Humber-Fox". Kobecki tells that in the midst of Regiment Fox operators nobody liked these cars. He states that there was a problem of balance in these cars and they were unstable, topheavy and it was easy to capsize the GM Fox. The Regiment used then the Staghounds, Humber Mk. IVs and Foxes that is why the Poles had an opportunity to compare those cars between them. 15th Regiment used the Foxes up to the end of 1944. Polish authors are not sure what happened with regimental Foxes later on. There is unconfirmed info that they were handed over to newly-formed 25. Pułk Ułanów Wielkopolskich, one more armoured cavalry reconnaissance regiment where "Wielkopolskich" in the name of 25th Regiment means the region of Poland and "Ułanów" means the same as "Ulan" in the a.m. 15th Regiment. Unfortunately nobody researched much deeper what happened with ex-15th Regiment Foxes.


Source:
Janusz Magnuski
Wozy bojowe Polskich Sił Zbrojnych 1940-1946
(The Combat Vehicles of the Polish Armed Forces 1940-1946)
Wydawnictwo Lampart, Warszawa 1998
(Lampart Publishing House, Warsaw 1998)
ISBN 83-86776-39-0

About the author Mr. Janusz Magnuski
http://www.explore-biography.com/sci..._Magnuski.html


---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well,… let’s return ETO.

When it comes to the GM Fox cars in the Polish 1st Armoured Division, NW Europe, I do not want to be, and I can not be a kind of "oracle". I am also historic journalist and publicist so I know how hard task is deep historic research and therefore I appreciate good work done by Peter Brown in the PRO which is excellent source of information. On the other hand the author of the Polish 1st Armoured Division monograph is a professionalist as well. Mr. Jacek Solarz, PhD, the author of the monograph mentioned, is a historian who took his doctor’s degree of the Polish 1st Armoured history and the analysis of the books written by one of the Division veteran Col. Franciszek Skibiński (during NW campaign he was Second-in-Command of the 10th Armoured Cavalry Brigade, main tank brigade of the 1st Armoured Division). This two-volume monograph was written in cooperation with PRO partner institution -- London-based The Sikorsky’s Institute and Polish Museum.

No doubt Jacek Solarz’s monograph is not focused on such details like the number of less typical weapon systems in the Division. The monograph is very well illustrated but also on the pics the Foxes can not be seen.

The question of the figures of vehicles in the Polish 1st Armoured is both simple and hard question simultaneously. The Division was in the 21st Army Group structure since March 1944. Theoretically the TOE for Polish 1st Armoured ought to be the same as for all other Commonwealth armoured divisions, but… There is always a "but" in history and my topic about logistics of the Canadian 4th Armoured and Polish 1st Armoured shows it very well. General structure of the Division changed several times because the unit had been planned for the Polish 1st Corps and its needs. The same goes for all types of the AFVs in the Divison -- they were replaced many times. Look at the following exapmple of 10th Armoured Cavalry Brigade belonged to the 1st Armoured Div. and its Dingos:
January 1st, 1944 -- there is 47 Dingos in the Brigade;
April 15th, 1944 -- there is only one Dingo in the Brigade;
June 25th, 1944 -- no Dingos in the Brigade;
Falaise Gap, August 1944 -- the Dingos return but in unknown number.

I am working with Polish 1st Armoured Div. veteran who served in elite 10. Pułk Strzelców Konnych (10th Mounted Rifles Regiment), the reconnaissance regiment working both for Polish Division and from time to time also in aid of Canadian 2nd Corps. I will ask him about these Foxes, if he remembers them.

James, of course you may be right that 37mm-armed Foxes may be taken as the other cars. I will try to check it and maybe I will add something in the weeks to come.

I did my best to explain a little and I hope it helps to some extent.

Best

C.

Last edited by Crewman; 28-03-05 at 15:23.
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  #27  
Old 29-03-05, 09:05
Neil Ashley Neil Ashley is offline
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Gentlemen

I would not necessarily dismiss the possibilty of these vehicles serving in the Polish Armoured Division on the basis that of no photographs exist or veterans cannot remember using them.

I have close connects with the 43rd Recce OCA and when Peters article first appeared it rasied a lot of questions. Veterans who had previously denied using certain vehicles when challenged further, changed their minds, and further evidence later came to light. When I pointed out the presence of Wasp and Windsor Carrier's in a regimental photograph, every one had forgotten using them.

Another 43rd classic is the well known Autocar article when the journalist recalls riding in a Morris LRC belong to the Recce HQ of a well known West Country Division. He had just road tested a Morris for Autocar so he should have known the difference, but both Peters article and the veterans deny this.

Units throughout the NW Europe campaign acquired vehicles which they did not have entitlement to, and immeadiately after the war when the Poles probably got these vehicles, strange things did happen.

I had enough problems trying to get still serving soldiers in my ex-regiment to rember what markings they used to have on their Saladins.
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  #28  
Old 30-03-05, 00:15
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Re: NW Europe

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Parker
Confirmation or additions?
Here´s another one in NW Europe: The Hague, The Netherlands, 8 May 1945, to be precise.

http://www.gemeentearchief.denhaag.n...0/29287A01.JPG

Source: http://www.gemeentearchief.denhaag.nl/websitehga/
Caption: » Buitenhof met een pantserwagen van de geallieerden; op de achtergrond nr. 42 (B. Dyjer)
Fotonummer: 6.05314
Fotograaf: Schrama, J.M.G., 10212
Datum: ca. 8 mei 1945
1 zwartwitfoto 6 x 9 cm
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  #29  
Old 30-03-05, 00:29
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
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Default Re: Re: NW Europe

Quote:
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Here´s another one in NW Europe: The Hague, The Netherlands, 8 May 1945, to be precise.
And another picture. Never knew they were used in Holland. Did you, Dirk?!?

http://www.gemeentearchief.denhaag.n...0/11390B01.jpg

Source: http://www.gemeentearchief.denhaag.nl/websitehga/
Caption: » Intocht van de Canadezen op de Hofweg
Fotonummer: 1.11390
Fotograaf: Wijk, Ed van
Datum: ex. mei 1945
1 zwartwitfoto 15 x 23 cm
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  #30  
Old 30-03-05, 00:32
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Re: Re: NW Europe

Quote:
Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Here´s another one in NW Europe: The Hague, The Netherlands, 8 May 1945, to be precise.
Picture number three!?!

http://www.gemeentearchief.denhaag.n...0/10953B03.jpg

Source: http://www.gemeentearchief.denhaag.nl/websitehga/
Caption: » Canadees voertuig op de Groenmarkt
Fotonummer: 1.10953
Fotograaf: Douwes, H.A.W., 553333
Datum: ex. 8 mei 1945
1 prentbriefkaart 9 x 14 cm
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