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  #31  
Old 01-01-21, 16:39
m606paz m606paz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Parker View Post
From this to this, nothin' to it. Just throw on a coat of paint...
Amazing Bruce!!
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  #32  
Old 01-01-21, 17:46
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Thats a beauty Bruce! Nice work.
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  #33  
Old 01-01-21, 18:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Gough View Post
From post #16, Les, if it is the same vehicle, it sure went a long way from its former resting place in the Elliot Brothers yard in Newtonville.

from the R M / Sotheby website https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/lc14
Does anybody know where this half track was restored? It sure came a long way from a wreck deemed unrestorable to it's current condition.

With picture and full description for future reference:

Quote:
https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/l...-km-m11/574492


8-ton Half-Track Sd.Kfz. 7 (KM m11)
Sold For $1,207,500
Inclusive of applicable buyer's fee.
RM | Auctions - THE LITTLEFIELD COLLECTION 11 - 12 JULY 2014

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Weight: 12.7-tons (11,550-kg)
Length: 22' 5” (6.85-m)
Width: 7' 7” (2.40-m)
Height: 8' 6” (2.62-m)
Crew: 1 + 11 passengers
Armor: None
Weapons: None
Engine: 6-cylinder Maybach HL62 TUK, 140-hp
Power/weight: 11-hp/ton
Fuel Capacity: 56-USG (213-l)
Range: 155-miles (250-km)
Speed: 31-mph (50-km/h)

The vehicle being offered, 8-ton Half-track Sd.Kfz. 7, is a quite rare vehicle. It was thoroughly restored in the late 1990s or early 2000s and arrived at the MVTF sometime between 2004 and 2006. It is in immaculate shape. It appeared on the cover of the December 2003 issue of Military Machines International magazine and was shown in two other photos in the same issue as it was being put through its paces at the 2003 Duxford show. Based on the stamping on the front towing pintle, this vehicle was built in 1942. The paint is in excellent condition. The tires, roadwheels and tracks are in like new condition. All exterior lights are present. The rear winch is provided with a cable. The engine compartment is clean and appears to be complete. All driver’s instruments appear to be complete. The actuator lever for the radiator louvers functions normally. The troop seats are in excellent condition. Troop straps are provided for each row of seats. Wooden tilts for the foul weather cover are mounted are appear to work normally. The windscreen glass is in excellent condition. Rifle racks are mounted with each row of seats.

Design work on the Sd.Kfz. 7 half-track, or more formally, Sd.Kfz. 7 mittlerer Zugkraftwagen 8t, began in 1934. It was built to fulfill a Wehrmacht requirement for an 8-ton half-track prime mover. Trials vehicles were produced between 1934 and 1938. The type was officially accepted into service in 1938 with production starting at that time. By the time production ended in 1944, 12,187 had been built by three manufacturers: Krauss-Maffei, Borgward and Sauserwerke. A further 250 were built under license in Italy by Breda.

The Sd.Kfz. 7 was used to tow medium artillery such as the 15-cm sFH 18, 10-cm schwere Kanone 18 and the 8.8-cm Flak gun series. Bench seating was provided for up to 11 gun-crew members while compartments in the rear of the vehicle could be used to carry ammunition. The Sd.Kfz. 7 had a towing capacity of 17,600-lbs (8,000-kg) so it could handle most medium artillery in the Wehrmacht inventory. The suspension consisted of two undriven front wheels and a tracked rear with seven sets of roadwheels per side. The drive-sprocket was located at the front of the track system. A powered winch was located at the rear of the vehicle near the towing pintle.

Several variants of the Sd.Kfz. 7 were produced during the war, including the late war variant with a wooden truck-type cab and load-bed and a few anti-aircraft versions. The Sd.Kfz. 7/1 carried a 2-cm Flakvierling 38 while the Sd.Kfz. 7/2 mounted a 3.7-cm Flak 36. Both versions were built in armored and unarmored variants.

The Sd.Kfz. 7 saw service with the Wehrmacht throughout World War II. There were never enough to go around, so most of them ended up with German mechanized units, thus forcing most of the German Army to rely on horses for the duration of the war. Post-war, they were used by the Czechoslovakian Army for several years until replaced by Soviet or domestically produced equipment.

Transport Cost to Storage: $1,452
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  #34  
Old 01-01-21, 20:22
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James P View Post
..........questioned and held to account for his role in seeing the Mowat StuG depart Canada.
Good question. But museums buy/sell/trade/connive all the time to improve their collections. Same could be said about the CWM moving the Panzer II along. Farley had a hand in collecting that one too.
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  #35  
Old 01-01-21, 21:25
Ed Storey Ed Storey is online now
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Default Stug III

Quote:
Originally Posted by James P View Post
..........questioned and held to account for his role in seeing the Mowat StuG depart Canada.
I had not heard that Bill had a hand in the Stug departing Canada as I believe the vehicle was a DND asset and the deal was arranged by the military, where as Bill was a private collector. I know he had a hand in the import of Grizzlies from Portugal.
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  #36  
Old 01-01-21, 21:28
Ed Storey Ed Storey is online now
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Default Fox

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Parker View Post
From this to this, nothin' to it. Just throw on a coat of paint...
Amazing what a coat of paint can accomplish! I know a few museums which could use your talent.
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  #37  
Old 01-01-21, 21:44
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default pilot models - constructed of mild steel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Parker View Post
The Fox in the photo is the one the Elliott's kept for their museum and went to the US. It has two front axles and, because they left the interior 'as-is', it was a wealth of information for my restoration. Paul's Fox was at the lower left, mine in the middle and the museum one on the right. One Otter was in the museum, the other went to a father/son team north of Montreal where it got a coat of post war gloss green paint and disappeared. I tried to look up the owners a few years ago without luck (there is an MLU post on this with pics).

The Fox in the yard were odd, and I think factory seconds. They were marked with welded on triangles and this one with THIN ROOF HULL (now ground off). All had early features (square gauges, no fire suppression, early turret crank) yet were at the end of the production run according to their manufacture dates.

Here are the locations of the Otters and Fox back then and the packing slip that came with them. My Fox is the top one, the Otter and Fox marked 'ours' went to the USA, Paul's is the third line and the other Otter is MIA.
Thanks Bruce,

I did not realise there were multiple Foxes in your photos.

I think the Foxes with welded on triangles and thin roof hull were not factory seconds, they were likely pilot models. As with other armoured vehicles, pilots were constructed of mild steel and would be used for component testing and ironing out the last manufacturing details before committing to full scale production using armour plate. The early features are an indicator of them being pilot models.
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  #38  
Old 01-01-21, 22:12
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
Thanks Bruce,

I did not realise there were multiple Foxes in your photos.

I think the Foxes with welded on triangles and thin roof hull were not factory seconds, they were likely pilot models. As with other armoured vehicles, pilots were constructed of mild steel and would be used for component testing and ironing out the last manufacturing details before committing to full scale production using armour plate. The early features are an indicator of them being pilot models.
Hanno, all my stills are of 'THIN ROOF HULL". The video captures are the Fox that eventually became mine, as is the old photo of the hull that Les Fisher posted. For some reason I didn't take any photos of the one Paul has, though I crawled over it many times.

I would agree with you the welded on markings are prototype or pilot, but I can confirm mine at least is made of hard drill bit breaking armour (it had the triangles). My Fox was built in October 1943 at the end of production which makes me wonder how that can be. Is it possible pilots sat at the GM plant and were given data plates at the end so they could be sent to the army? It's a safe bet most of the Fox left in Canada were for training so hard armour, fire suppression, etc. were not that important, though the vehicles would be well marked to indicate that.
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  #39  
Old 03-01-21, 03:39
Ed Storey Ed Storey is online now
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Default Sd.Kfz. 7

This photograph of a Sd.Kfz. 7 photographed on parliament hill was e-mailed to me.

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As well, I was also sent this image as a comparison which shows how the RCMP have transitioned from using surplus wartime German halftracks to more modern patrol cars for guarding parliament hill.

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  #40  
Old 03-01-21, 03:46
Ed Storey Ed Storey is online now
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Default Fox and Otter

Does anyone know where these two vehicles came from and subsequently ended up?

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  #41  
Old 03-01-21, 05:18
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Ed, both are in the Canadian War Museum collection.

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https://www.warmuseum.ca/collections...ia_irn=5719682


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http://silverhawkauthor.com/tanks-an...rt-ii_989.html
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  #42  
Old 03-01-21, 11:54
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Parker View Post
Hanno, all my stills are of 'THIN ROOF HULL". The video captures are the Fox that eventually became mine, as is the old photo of the hull that Les Fisher posted. For some reason I didn't take any photos of the one Paul has, though I crawled over it many times.
What about Dirk and Stefans Fox, didn't it come from Elliots as well?

By the way....your Fox looks awesome and I really like the paint colour match.

Alex
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  #43  
Old 03-01-21, 12:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering View Post
What about Dirk and Stefans Fox, didn't it come from Elliots as well?
Dirk's first Fox came from Elliots indeed, it was later sold on to Paul Visser after Dirk found a better Fox in Belgium.

Paul had to spend a lot of time searching for the missing parts.
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  #44  
Old 03-01-21, 12:34
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david moore View Post
Hi Alex
Would you add a photo of the C8 now? Just to encourage us all!
David,

Well....in all honesty....at the time in Elliots yard it looked more like a truck than it does now....as it's still a work in progress!
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  #45  
Old 03-01-21, 12:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering View Post
Well....in all honesty....at the time in Elliots yard it looked more like a truck than it does now....as it's still a work in progress!
It is a testament to all the hard work that has gone into this truck. Well done Alex

One should know that every component and part had to be restored as the truck had such a hard life - even the chassis was extensively modified.

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  #46  
Old 03-01-21, 15:40
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
Does anyone know where these two vehicles came from and subsequently ended up?

Attachment 118768

Attachment 118769
I think (?) from a wrecking yard just outside of Niagara Falls. In Bill Greg's Blueprint for Victory book there's mention of an Otter and Fox found there. Bill did have an Otter and Fox but these went to Shilo.
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  #47  
Old 03-01-21, 15:54
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
Dirk's first Fox came from Elliots indeed, it was later sold on to Paul Visser after Dirk found a better Fox in Belgium.
Aha; I did't know Dirk's FOX cam from Belgium, I always assumed both Dirk and Paul's Foxes came from Elliots.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
It is a testament to all the hard work that has gone into this truck. Well done Alex

One should know that every component and part had to be restored as the truck had such a hard life - even the chassis was extensively modified.
Thanks Hanno. Still a lot of work to do though! Hopefully I have the spirit back again soon.
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  #48  
Old 03-01-21, 17:34
Brian Gough Brian Gough is online now
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Default where they went

Ed and Bruce,

that wrecking yard near Niagara Falls was owned by John Horosko who at one time had 2 Fox and 2 Otters. Where they went and a whole lot more of the story from 1984 can be found in the article "History Relived in Canada" (the Gregg Canadian Collection) in Wheels & Tracks #7 pages 8-13. The article can be read here:

- edit: link to full issue deleted & replaced by link to copy of article only: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QdS...ew?usp=sharing

Reading it again reminds me of the great work that Bart Vanderveen did for the HMV hobby. We are also fortunate on the MLU Forum to have several active contributors from those early days.

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  #49  
Old 03-01-21, 19:19
Ed Storey Ed Storey is online now
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Default WT Number 7

Brian, nice to see a pdf copy of WT No. 7 posted to the forum, but I believe that doing so is a breach in copyright with ATB Publications who were the publisher and are still in business.
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  #50  
Old 03-01-21, 19:39
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
Brian, nice to see a pdf copy of WT No. 7 posted to the forum, but I believe that doing so is a breach in copyright with ATB Publications who were the publisher and are still in business.

Would this not be a legitimate exemption as in Sec.29 of the Copyright Act?

Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42)
Exceptions
Fair Dealing
Marginal note:Research, private study, etc.

29 Fair dealing for the purpose of research, private study, education, parody or satire does not infringe copyright.
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  #51  
Old 03-01-21, 19:44
Grant Bowker Grant Bowker is online now
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Until recently I would have had little sympathy for After The Battle as copyright holders as they were not making the material available for people who wanted to buy access (although the law may be written to permit them to prohibit sharing without them making it available for purchase).
It now appears they are taking steps to publish Wheels And Tracks electronically - https://www.afterthebattle.com/magaz...andtracks.html as well as making an index freely avaialble - https://www.afterthebattle.com/magazine/wandtindex.pdf
At 6 GBP per issue the downloads are about twice the original cover price but not out of line with many current magazines. It's nice to see the material being made available for those who missed out the first time around. So far, issues 1-41 seem to be available. https://pocketmags.com/after-the-bat.../specialissues
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  #52  
Old 03-01-21, 20:36
Ed Storey Ed Storey is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Parker View Post
Would this not be a legitimate exemption as in Sec.29 of the Copyright Act?

Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42)
Exceptions
Fair Dealing
Marginal note:Research, private study, etc.

29 Fair dealing for the purpose of research, private study, education, parody or satire does not infringe copyright.
Yes, but this does not mean that you can scan a whole publication, then download it to a forum in which anyone can then access the document and copy it for free. Scanning and posting selected segments, for private study, research etc is acceptable. Giving credit to the source is always nice as well.
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  #53  
Old 03-01-21, 22:07
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
Yes, but this does not mean that you can scan a whole publication, then download it to a forum in which anyone can then access the document and copy it for free. Scanning and posting selected segments, for private study, research etc is acceptable. Giving credit to the source is always nice as well.
I agree credit would be nice, though it clearly is Wheels and Tracks. There is no profit, I consider it for research and the Copyright Act is silent on what portion or portions may be made available (who's to say something in the rest of the publication isn't invaluable in putting context to the research or study being done?). Where this gets murkier is where something is published. The Canadian federal Copyright Act starts down this path but acknowledges what's outside of Canada can't rightly be enforced, just 'persuaded' and injunctions at the pleasure of some other location. I dealt with some of this first hand when I was part of an organization having to sort out what happens when provincial legislation compels someone to do something that is against the federal act. It was never really settled as both sides ran out of will and money to decide it.
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  #54  
Old 03-01-21, 22:10
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Copyright

Good points re. copyright infringement and the fact that electronic copies are now available. Neither Brian nor MLU Forum copied and published that issue of Wheels & Tracks, Brian merely provided a link to a site which is hosting a pdf-copy of it.

However, to prevent a possible legal conundrum I have edited Brian's posting by deleting the link to the full issue & inserting a link to a pdf copy of the article Brian refers to only. This should comply with the legitimate exemption Bruce referred to.
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  #55  
Old 06-01-21, 14:48
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Stefan Leegwater Stefan Leegwater is offline
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Default F60h

One of the nicest finds at the Elliots yard is our F60H, my dad Dirk saw this truck the first time when Barry took him there in '98.
Ever since, Dirk and I got back there every year, and at one point finally got this unique truck out of there.
With help from Barry we got the holmes wrecker to go with it.
We liked to meet up with the brothers every year and found besides the vehicles many cmp parts as well there in the school busses.
I also added a picture of the Stuart M5A1 in the yard, picture from 1998

Good memories on this yard!

Stefan

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  #56  
Old 06-01-21, 16:41
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Elliott's yard today on Google streetscape, now Fast Auto Parts & Metals. It remains much as it was (except for the CMPs of course). My Fox came from about where the blue roll off bin is behind the white transport truck through the gate. The office in Stefan's photo is to the right and you had to chat with one or other of the brothers and drink a bad cup of coffee in there first before getting into the back.
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  #57  
Old 07-01-21, 18:43
Ian McColl Ian McColl is offline
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The Elliot Brothers occupied the building directly across the road when I was first there as a young boy. The first time I recall visiting they were fabricating a 15cwt 2B1 box or at least a good portion of it. That building was then utilized by a forklift company if I am not mistaken. The buildings shown in the photos were used for storage at that time. I recall them moving across the road to to the buildings shown when they were starting to "wind down" a little bit but were there for a great number of years as most will know.
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  #58  
Old 07-01-21, 23:22
Bob Phillips Bob Phillips is offline
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Here are a couple of related pictures..which vehicle is this Bruce? Though it probably doesn't show up well in the scan, there is a double triangle on the front with adata plate in the center. Second photo goes hand in hand with the German halftrack photo. This ME262 was sold for scrap out of Aylmer ontario to a local scrap dealer. Engines had apparently been removed from the aircraft for testing. It was broken up for scrap. (Warbirds International. May 2000).
I wish I had been a scrap dealer in the early 1950s !

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  #59  
Old 08-01-21, 00:05
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Phillips View Post
Here are a couple of related pictures..which vehicle is this Bruce? Though it probably doesn't show up well in the scan, there is a double triangle on the front with adata plate in the center. Second photo goes hand in hand with the German halftrack photo. This ME262 was sold for scrap out of Aylmer ontario to a local scrap dealer. Engines had apparently been removed from the aircraft for testing. It was broken up for scrap. (Warbirds International. May 2000).
I wish I had been a scrap dealer in the early 1950s !
What a lost opportunity on the Me262. Damn.

The Fox is "THIN ROOF HULL", the Elliott's museum piece. Given the painted hull and unpainted turret the photo dates from a time during their cleanup. The giveaway is the headlight configuration and undersize dummy smoke dischargers. Barely visible is that it has two front axles, the Elliotts used what they had. I spent many hours inside that Fox and it provided invaluable information for my restoration as well as one in England.

Here's pics of it on the day it arrived in Salt Lake City and what it looks like today. I swear some of the brown marks on the floor are my blood from scuffs and nicks suffered during my fact finding missions. This is also the Fox that almost killed me and note it STILL doesn't have hinges holding the engine cover on.

We just need a current pic of Paul Visser's Fox to see where all three ended up.
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Last edited by Bruce Parker (RIP); 08-01-21 at 00:16.
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  #60  
Old 08-01-21, 00:59
Bruce Parker (RIP) Bruce Parker (RIP) is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan Leegwater View Post
I also added a picture of the Stuart M5A1 in the yard, picture from 1998
OK, so whatever became of the Stuart? I thought it was long gone by 1998.
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