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  #31  
Old 28-08-18, 20:27
rob love rob love is offline
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Last photo I will show from the manuals is a shot from tm 9-2520-234-35. It shows what I suspect is the setup yours was meant for. In this case, the final drives are referred to as output drives. They do, in fact, have a planetary set of gearing in them. This manual does have some very nice coloured illustrations showing the paths of power.
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  #32  
Old 28-08-18, 20:53
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I suspect that the problem is I have the flanges below which are bolted in with a bolt and washer, in place of the flanges I need which are in Rob's manual drawing

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I think the confusion has come from the flanges being removable, I suspect if I were to take them out the output end of the transmission would look exactly like the drawing in Rob's manual. And I think David is also correct, that picture I posted is the brakes, not the steering, pretty clear after reviewing Rob's steering diagram. So I think I am still on the hunt for the original two flanges that Rob identified early on...Thoughts?

Last edited by jdmcm; 28-08-18 at 20:59.
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  #33  
Old 28-08-18, 21:50
rob love rob love is offline
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As well as the flanges, I believe there will be seal retainers and seals.

I'll try and get outside for a photo of the loose powerpack.

I believe Ian Newby has an operable M109 as part of his museum if you wanted to see one first hand.
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  #34  
Old 28-08-18, 22:01
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Tm 9-2350-311-20-1

To save rob a lot of trouble, TM 9-2350-311-20-1 is on-line as a pdf and can be found at:

http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-9-2350-311-20-1.pdf
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  #35  
Old 28-08-18, 23:28
rob love rob love is offline
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Thanks Ed...I mentioned it was available online in an earlier post, as so many of them are. However, it makes things a lot quicker if you can refer to someone who has worked on them, or at least look at the real thing. Especially when you consider some of these manuals will cover several different models of application.

To be totally honest, I wasn't an M109 guy when I was in the service. It was a trade specialty course, and every time they went to load me on a course, it would get yanked away. One time I didn't even make it away from the control office counter and the course was gone. By the time I left the regiment I was a Sgt, and had people who did that kind of work for me. Heck, I wasn't even supposed to have a toolbox. Big battle over that with my ET... I eventually won and got to retain the box. Eventually I got tired of being a data entry monkey and cat herder so I retired. I now find myself having to look after a pair of the M109s, so whatever peripheral experience I got on them has come in handy.
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  #36  
Old 29-08-18, 00:39
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Pinching this from Paul's post #22 : http://automotiveenginemechanics.tpu...34-35_30_1.jpg

That drawing is clearly marked up as if the whole pack is at the rear of the vehicle driving rear sprockets. M109s, M107 / M110 are front engine / drive so what vehicle is that instalation from ?

Does anyone have a list of vehicles this power pack fitted ?

David
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  #37  
Old 29-08-18, 02:09
Paul Singleton Paul Singleton is offline
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I have been looking through the manual and it does state that this powertrain is front mounted. Also in the introduction is a picture of the transmission with drive flanges as in Rob’s post. It would seem that this power unit may have been used in more than one type of vehicle.

http://automotiveenginemechanics.tpu...-2520-238-34P/
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  #38  
Old 29-08-18, 02:15
Paul Singleton Paul Singleton is offline
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Also found this,

https://www.forecastinternational.co...fm?ARC_ID=1147

http://www.tecmotiv.com/tecmotiv/m109_support/

Last edited by Paul Singleton; 29-08-18 at 02:18. Reason: Added link
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  #39  
Old 29-08-18, 05:32
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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John,
This looks like what you have. It shows the steering, selector, and brake shafts also.

Like the M113, the flange shown for the inboard u-joint will probably slide on the splines into the transmission to give clearance for u-joint removal.

Perhaps the threaded outside diameter on the splined output sleeves in your tranny is for an oil seal holder to seal the flange hub.

Malcolm

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  #40  
Old 29-08-18, 05:41
rob love rob love is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm Towrie View Post

Like the M113, the flange shown for the inboard u-joint will probably slide on the splines into the transmission to give clearance for u-joint removal.
Attachment 101864
The output flanges for the xmsn are secured in place with a bolt and washer, as shown in some of the diagrams I posted. More likely are that the flanges in the final drives will slide in and out as required.
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  #41  
Old 29-08-18, 11:04
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Again the drawing in Malcolm's post #39 shows a rear mounted pack. The "right output flange" would be the left one on a front mounted instalation like a M109. I cannot think of a US designed rear drive armoured vehicle of this size and period.

David
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  #42  
Old 29-08-18, 14:10
rob love rob love is offline
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I can check deeper into the manuals for the other relevant manuals. Often they will give away the applications.
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  #43  
Old 29-08-18, 15:03
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Checked the manual, and for the XTG-411-2A with outputs, the end item applications are the M107 175mm SP, and the M110 8 inch SP. No doubt there will be other applications for similar set-ups. These two are the ones that use 8351100 powertrain assy. I'm not sating that is what John has, but rather that is what this particular manual covers. I'm not even sure why this manual would be in Canadian service. Edited toad: I have me answer...the M578 ARV was based on the M110 chassis. I had a look in my ARV manuals and it uses the drive units attached to the transmission rather than the separate final drives as used on the M109.

I also note in the first manual that they jump from calling the left output either left or right, depending on the photo, so perhaps that is the case of the photo Malcolm showed earlier.

Last edited by rob love; 29-08-18 at 15:30.
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  #44  
Old 30-08-18, 03:27
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Are any of those vehicles you mentioned Rob, powered from the rear? Or are they all front drive like the M109? The marines at Camp Pendleton were working on a few different self propelled guns so it is very possible it came from a different version than the M109...as long as they are all powered from the front and David has it nailed on the rotation of the T-55/55/62 final drive input...this thing is feasible...
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  #45  
Old 30-08-18, 04:19
rob love rob love is offline
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All are powered at the front.

The manual talks about which way the rotation of the flanges and drives are (clockwise or counterclockwise). I can give you the manual number and you can compare the drive of your xmsn with the final drives of the receiving tank and see if things are going to match up.

Manual can be downloaded here: http://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-9-2520-234-35.pdf

The manual also mentions that the outputs are not necessarily left and right of the vehicle. It is considered that the transmission side that faces the engine is considered the front of the transmission, so left and right are off of that point. And the left and right outputs are reversed to right and left if the drive units are attached to the transmission.

Last edited by rob love; 30-08-18 at 05:07.
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  #46  
Old 30-08-18, 04:30
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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John, just curious, why are you considering using this pack in a T55?
Malcolm
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  #47  
Old 30-08-18, 15:38
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Possibly because although the original T55 engine is excellent, the transmission isn't. The whole thing is just plain crude. The service clutch is a metal to metal dry multiplate clutch which never fully disengages. If you are stationary, in gear for more than ten seconds the plates get hot, warp and engage themselves. Primary gearbox is simply crude, fan drive is unbelievably noisy, particularly at idle when you can hear the backlash in the gear train banging back and fourth. It also has clutch and brake steering which is just dangerous at the speeds that it is capable of driving. Note that all T55 / T62 in news programs have the fenders rounded off on all four corners, there is a reason for that !

Having said that, it is I believe the worlds most prolific tank family so someone loves them and we must remember that they were built for fighting in wide open spaces, not for the semi urban environment that western armour finds itself in.

David
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  #48  
Old 30-08-18, 18:30
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Malcolm

we came across one, T-54, that has been de-milled by cutting out all the engine bay fittings, all that is left is the steering clutches/brakes attached to the final drives. As everything is worth saving, this seemed like a way to make a very functional, easily maintained and arguably better running tank, with parts available anywhere in North America. When we got the, what I call M109 pack for ease of description, ...we had thought about it for our Type 69, but that tank had such an fascinating story/history we decided best to keep it as original so we sourced a couple decent motors for it and left it how it was built.

John
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  #49  
Old 30-08-18, 21:08
rob love rob love is offline
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When I check the parts manual for the ARV, the transmission pack is referred to as "M109/M578", so perhaps it is not much more than a change of the flanges. It is going back quite a while but I remember some differences in the generator or cooling systems between the two.
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  #50  
Old 31-08-18, 03:01
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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On the attachment in post 39, what is the "throttle shaft" for on the tranny? Engine load input?
Malcolm
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  #51  
Old 31-08-18, 03:57
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Possibly similar to the kickdown cable on many transmissions. It might keep the transmission in the lower gear when under high load/maximum throttle, or might kick down the gear under similar circumstance.
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  #52  
Old 31-08-18, 22:34
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Or it might be that it is part of the throttle linkage to the engine and from the pedal.

David
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  #53  
Old 31-08-18, 23:48
rob love rob love is offline
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According to the online manual I referred to earlier, the throttle lever acts on the throttle valve and the throttle regulator valve.
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  #54  
Old 01-09-18, 02:11
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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As far as I know, any automatic transmission needs to know engine load so it can short shift, downshift, increase shift pressure, etc. I suspect that shaft is interconnected with the engine throttle linkage to give that input.

John, if you go ahead with the project, best thing to do is get a hold of the original interconnected throttle linkage if you don't have one.

Malcolm
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  #55  
Old 02-09-18, 01:15
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I would love to Malcolm but spares for these things are hard to find, so far I cant even find the output flanges, any US suppliers fall all over them self crying "ITAR" and wont even speak to you about parts...I am going to have to get "lucky" with a monument vehicle and be in exactly the right place at the right time I fear

John
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  #56  
Old 02-09-18, 02:06
Malcolm Towrie Malcolm Towrie is offline
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Ah, I see.
Looking at the photo in your post #11, that pack looks quite long from front to back. The t54 engine and tranny are quite narrow and really jammed tight together. Have you checked there is enough space between the firewall and the fan compartment?

And how would you drive the fan?


Malcolm
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  #57  
Old 02-09-18, 10:49
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Good question about fan drive. A tracked armoured vehicle generally requires 10% of its engine power to drive the fans at max power. A Leo 2 disengages its fans if you kick down the transmission and releases another 200 HP !

This much power is needed because there is absolutely no natural ventilation in a tank engine bay and no gaps between units so heat just builds up if not removed unlike in a car where it is blown away by the movement of the vehicle and only needs to be extracted from the inside of the engine.

David
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  #58  
Old 03-09-18, 19:44
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This is a screenshot from Nimda in Israel, they developed this pack for the T-54/55 series...looks like the stock fan and oil tank are eliminated and the new rad stretches right to the rear of the fan compartment, hydraulic fans I'm guessing on the other side of the radiator, there is a hydraulic drive on the 8V71 you could use to turn them...also note the shifter control etc.

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